Half a million VWs recalled, sneaky emissions software.
Discussion
Maybe he is, I still have zero sympathy.
Other motor manufacturers will take up the slack on car sales inevitably.
And its unlikely they will go under anyway.
I liken the industry to the analogy on energy with it never being destroyed just moving from one form to another.
Be nice if all VAGs lost sales were picked up by TVR or Lotus or Aston or Maserati or Alfa but thats fantasy of course.
I am in Oz at the mo and German cars are rare here. Holden generally hold court here and there are numerous V8s and Other petrol powered machinery. Much nicer automotive environment frankly but then petrol is half the price than in the UK
If this event sounds the death knell for the diesel car in Europe and the resurgence of petrol power then I for one would be happy.
Other motor manufacturers will take up the slack on car sales inevitably.
And its unlikely they will go under anyway.
I liken the industry to the analogy on energy with it never being destroyed just moving from one form to another.
Be nice if all VAGs lost sales were picked up by TVR or Lotus or Aston or Maserati or Alfa but thats fantasy of course.
I am in Oz at the mo and German cars are rare here. Holden generally hold court here and there are numerous V8s and Other petrol powered machinery. Much nicer automotive environment frankly but then petrol is half the price than in the UK
If this event sounds the death knell for the diesel car in Europe and the resurgence of petrol power then I for one would be happy.
Allegedly multiple defeat devices across multiple engines:
http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCAKCN...
http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCAKCN...
Scuffers said:
Oilchange said:
Maybe he is, I still have zero sympathy.
Other motor manufacturers will take up the slack on car sales inevitably.
yes, right up to when they get caught out for doing essentially the same.Other motor manufacturers will take up the slack on car sales inevitably.
Anybody that think they are not all at this to some extent, are deluded.
Other manufacturers tweaks are more obvious - flat spots at certain RPM, stop start/eco mode which activates every startup, etc.
Pretty much all the other manufacturers are on record that they aren't doing what VW did. Are you seriously saying they'd make those public statements when they're not true?
rscott said:
We all know that other manufacturers optimise settings to pass the tests, however it seems that VW are the only ones to have specific modes which are only activated when it detects test conditions.
Other manufacturers tweaks are more obvious - flat spots at certain RPM, stop start/eco mode which activates every startup, etc.
Pretty much all the other manufacturers are on record that they aren't doing what VW did. Are you seriously saying they'd make those public statements when they're not true?
show us the unequivocal statements from Ford/GM/etc?Other manufacturers tweaks are more obvious - flat spots at certain RPM, stop start/eco mode which activates every startup, etc.
Pretty much all the other manufacturers are on record that they aren't doing what VW did. Are you seriously saying they'd make those public statements when they're not true?
Scuffers said:
rscott said:
We all know that other manufacturers optimise settings to pass the tests, however it seems that VW are the only ones to have specific modes which are only activated when it detects test conditions.
Other manufacturers tweaks are more obvious - flat spots at certain RPM, stop start/eco mode which activates every startup, etc.
Pretty much all the other manufacturers are on record that they aren't doing what VW did. Are you seriously saying they'd make those public statements when they're not true?
show us the unequivocal statements from Ford/GM/etc?Other manufacturers tweaks are more obvious - flat spots at certain RPM, stop start/eco mode which activates every startup, etc.
Pretty much all the other manufacturers are on record that they aren't doing what VW did. Are you seriously saying they'd make those public statements when they're not true?
Oilchange said:
Well if we vote out of the EU in 2017 the money won't come from the UK/EU tax payer and There is no magic money tree. At the end of the day VAG isn't a publically owned company so how can the tax payer bail them out let alone the UK taxpayer?
12.7% State of Lower Saxony - that will be public then?And your dreaming to think that even if the EU vote is us to leave will will not already have been hit for this?
Look what happened to BP, you think the British taxpayer did not take a massive hit on it? and we did not have a public share holding in BP.
Oilchange said:
Ok fair one 12.7% publically owned but frankly, f
k them. I hope they go under.
:-)
so, you're quite happy that this is going to cost YOU money then?k them. I hope they go under.:-)
And whilst I am here, exactly who is going to benefit from all the bulls
t?What happens when the inevitable happens, ie, Merc/Ford/BMW/Etc all get dragged into this mess?
the real culprit in all this is the politicians that played the green card bull for years setting more and more unrealistic and unnecessary emissions targets based on a test that's hopelessly out of date.
Scuffers said:
so, you're quite happy that this is going to cost YOU money then?
And whilst I am here, exactly who is going to benefit from all the bullst?
What happens when the inevitable happens, ie, Merc/Ford/BMW/Etc all get dragged into this mess?
the real culprit in all this is the politicians that played the green card bull for years setting more and more unrealistic and unnecessary emissions targets based on a test that's hopelessly out of date.
Anyone who has a diesel car is going to be affected - now that it's confirmed that diesel cars are pumping pure cancer into the skies (I jest), they'll be taxed to oblivion. And whilst I am here, exactly who is going to benefit from all the bulls
t?What happens when the inevitable happens, ie, Merc/Ford/BMW/Etc all get dragged into this mess?
the real culprit in all this is the politicians that played the green card bull for years setting more and more unrealistic and unnecessary emissions targets based on a test that's hopelessly out of date.
Who is going to benefit? Companies who didn't bet on diesel, but instead opted for hybrid petrol and full electric powertrains. General Motors and Toyota are likely to be the biggest beneficiaries IMO.
Scuffers said:
rscott said:
We all know that other manufacturers optimise settings to pass the tests, however it seems that VW are the only ones to have specific modes which are only activated when it detects test conditions.
Other manufacturers tweaks are more obvious - flat spots at certain RPM, stop start/eco mode which activates every startup, etc.
Pretty much all the other manufacturers are on record that they aren't doing what VW did. Are you seriously saying they'd make those public statements when they're not true?
show us the unequivocal statements from Ford/GM/etc?Other manufacturers tweaks are more obvious - flat spots at certain RPM, stop start/eco mode which activates every startup, etc.
Pretty much all the other manufacturers are on record that they aren't doing what VW did. Are you seriously saying they'd make those public statements when they're not true?
And mention of Ford, Renault-Nissan and BMW (again) here -http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34324772 .
Feel free to Google for any others - they're out there.
ChrisRS6 said:
Good Friend of mine is a service manager for A large VW dealer.....He says VW told them there's loads of other manufacturers doing exactly the same!!!....its a ticking time bomb as to when the others get named and shamed.
But how would they know that? VW didn't know that they themselves were cheating.They claim that 2 software engineers were responsible for everything!
rscott said:
10 seconds on Google gives BMW's statement - http://www.carsuk.net/bmw-did-not-use-defeat-devic...
And mention of Ford, Renault-Nissan and BMW (again) here -http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34324772 .
Feel free to Google for any others - they're out there.
that actually does not 100% answer the question though.And mention of Ford, Renault-Nissan and BMW (again) here -http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34324772 .
Feel free to Google for any others - they're out there.
it's not a black or white issue, and whilst I am sure they have nothing as stupidly blatant as VW incorporated, I bet their setup optimises Adblue usage on the area's of the mapping that the drive test covers for example.
So, yes, they comply with the test (as did VW).
Scuffers said:
rscott said:
10 seconds on Google gives BMW's statement - http://www.carsuk.net/bmw-did-not-use-defeat-devic...
And mention of Ford, Renault-Nissan and BMW (again) here -http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34324772 .
Feel free to Google for any others - they're out there.
that actually does not 100% answer the question though.And mention of Ford, Renault-Nissan and BMW (again) here -http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34324772 .
Feel free to Google for any others - they're out there.
it's not a black or white issue, and whilst I am sure they have nothing as stupidly blatant as VW incorporated, I bet their setup optimises Adblue usage on the area's of the mapping that the drive test covers for example.
So, yes, they comply with the test (as did VW).
mondeoman said:
Well, d'uh, of course they optimise for it, be stupid not to, but thats a whole different status to having a defeat device. VW only complied with the test when doing the test, other cars comply with the test at all times.
define defeat device?and no, they don't comply all the time, that's the problem.
Look, whatever you think right now, please remember that portable 'accurate' gas analyzers are really thin on the ground at the moment, (and they are only just about able to be called portable), the levels of NOx you need to measure here (relative to the air around you) is tiny, so any figures that are being thrown about in the press at the moment are not definitive by any means.
Scuffers said:
define defeat device?
The EPA did so. "Any apparatus that unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under conditions a vehicle may reasonably be expected to experience."
The point of this is that the VW system involved using a completely different map when on test. All the other manufacturers are guilty of at the moment is using a map that happens to reduce emissions when running the test cycle. That map is the same one as used for normal driving though, and that's the important part.
davepoth said:
The EPA did so.
"Any apparatus that unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under conditions a vehicle may reasonably be expected to experience."
The point of this is that the VW system involved using a completely different map when on test. All the other manufacturers are guilty of at the moment is using a map that happens to reduce emissions when running the test cycle. That map is the same one as used for normal driving though, and that's the important part.
and we know this for a fact do we?"Any apparatus that unduly reduces the effectiveness of emissions control systems under conditions a vehicle may reasonably be expected to experience."
The point of this is that the VW system involved using a completely different map when on test. All the other manufacturers are guilty of at the moment is using a map that happens to reduce emissions when running the test cycle. That map is the same one as used for normal driving though, and that's the important part.
What we do know is they had some SW in there to detect the test, what we don;t yet know is exactly what that triggered.
On the adblue SCR cars, it would appear to increase the dosage of adblue, asides that it's not at all clear what they did.
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