Major explosion/bomb in Oslo
Discussion
davepoth said:
wollowizard said:
I can't believe what I am reading with this thread. People talking like there is a good reason to kill 70 innocent children. There is no reason,logic or thought on this planet that would make what he did worthy of discussion let alone acceptable.
To say we need to talk about his reason would only serve to give rise to more acts of this twisted nature as people who are twisted like him will feel that a discussion of thier reaons would be like a reward. The last thing that should happen and I mean the very last thing is allowing anything that evil child killer says to be heard.
Oh go on then, I'll bite. If he'd killed children because his aim was solely to kill children, I would want to get rid of him ASAP and try to forget about it. But he didn't kill children solely for killing children. While his method was repugnant, his rationale is common to thousands of people across the western world. It's as pernicious and widespread as extremism in the Muslim community, and this could well be the thin end of the wedge. To say we need to talk about his reason would only serve to give rise to more acts of this twisted nature as people who are twisted like him will feel that a discussion of thier reaons would be like a reward. The last thing that should happen and I mean the very last thing is allowing anything that evil child killer says to be heard.
We need to address the issues raised regardless of how heinous the crime.
Next time somebody wants to raise awarenes of a political belief or issue and want it discussed in the wider world the thought process is simple, kill kids and everybody will talk about it.
He has won before his words are heard, because all he wanted was the ears of the world to be ready for his words, to have your attention. The next person will win the same for the same reasons.
wollowizard said:
Next time somebody wants to raise awarenes of a political belief or issue and want it discussed in the wider world the thought process is simple, kill kids and everybody will talk about it.
Or take the debate and discuss the matter and be open about both the good and the bad sides, don't just brand them as nazis and silence them, that will just lead to more extremists like Breivik.Finlandia said:
Or take the debate and discuss the matter and be open about both the good and the bad sides, don't just brand them as nazis and silence them, that will just lead to more extremists like Breivik.
I assume you're referring to 'no smoke without fire'? So temporarily putting aside the horror of his actions, his mental state, his prejudices, etc, etc; which small part of his beliefs do you think it would be productive to debate? I'm really not sure.isaduck said:
I assume you're referring to 'no smoke without fire'? So temporarily putting aside the horror of his actions, his mental state, his prejudices, etc, etc; which small part of his beliefs do you think it would be productive to debate? I'm really not sure.
Debating in court is just silly, the debate must be held on a political level, and as it stands now in Scandinavia, those brave enough to try the democratic way are being silenced and branded as racist nazis. Which gives the likes of Breivik a perfect excuse to...Preventing acts like this in the future is hard, but an open debate dealing with both the good as well as the bad aspects of multi-culti, OTT PC'ness, etc, is a first and very important step to take.
To pretend as if nothing is wrong in society today is a sure way to a new disaster.
isaduck said:
Finlandia said:
Or take the debate and discuss the matter and be open about both the good and the bad sides, don't just brand them as nazis and silence them, that will just lead to more extremists like Breivik.
I assume you're referring to 'no smoke without fire'? So temporarily putting aside the horror of his actions, his mental state, his prejudices, etc, etc; which small part of his beliefs do you think it would be productive to debate? I'm really not sure.isaduck said:
Finlandia said:
Or take the debate and discuss the matter and be open about both the good and the bad sides, don't just brand them as nazis and silence them, that will just lead to more extremists like Breivik.
I assume you're referring to 'no smoke without fire'? So temporarily putting aside the horror of his actions, his mental state, his prejudices, etc, etc; which small part of his beliefs do you think it would be productive to debate? I'm really not sure.davepoth said:
Whether or not one believes that changes to the native society by immigrants is a bad thing or not, there are people that do.
I agree, but ABB has completely screwed up any chance of any reasonable discussion for quite some time. There might be bits of his manifesto that the most pragmatic person will agree with, but the worst possible thing to do is to cite him in any way.
MX7 said:
I agree, but ABB has completely screwed up any chance of any reasonable discussion for quite some time.
There might be bits of his manifesto that the most pragmatic person will agree with, but the worst possible thing to do is to cite him in any way.
No he hasn't as there was none and there is no possibility of it. His actions and those lives tragically lost were sadly quite pointless as the pc brigade will never allow discussion they prefer ignorance.There might be bits of his manifesto that the most pragmatic person will agree with, but the worst possible thing to do is to cite him in any way.
TallbutBuxomly said:
MX7 said:
I agree, but ABB has completely screwed up any chance of any reasonable discussion for quite some time.
There might be bits of his manifesto that the most pragmatic person will agree with, but the worst possible thing to do is to cite him in any way.
No he hasn't as there was none and there is no possibility of it. His actions and those lives tragically lost were sadly quite pointless as the pc brigade will never allow discussion they prefer ignorance.There might be bits of his manifesto that the most pragmatic person will agree with, but the worst possible thing to do is to cite him in any way.
Even Brown recognised that it's an issue that needed addressing when he said "I have never agreed with the lazy elitism that dismisses immigration as an issue, or portrays anyone who has concerns about immigration as a racist”.
I think that the problem is that you've made a bit of a pig's ear out of trying to suggest that immigration is an issue that should be discussed regardless of ABB, and it's riled a few people on here. In a different context, and expressed with a bit more tact, I think that you might have more support than you have on this thread.
Please don't go all defensive, I do agree with some of what I think you are trying to say, but I'm sorry to say that you've approached the subject in an incredibly clumsy fashion, and probably chosen the wrong thread to do it on, and I have zero doubt that some here have misconstrued your views.
It feels like this thread is very circular, but interesting none the less, and I think it would continue to be so if people accepted that no one on here supports the actions of ABB, and no one pretended that immigration is an subject beyond reproach.
Finlandia said:
Brown has said it, Merkel as well and Sarkozy mentioned it, but they are not in Scandinavia, if anyone dares to mention anything of the sort here, you get branded a racist.
That is what creates the likes of Breivik.
Ok, I must admit that I'm not that familiar with the culture there, but if it's really that bad I find that worrying, and perhaps the most beneficial lessons that can be learnt from this are in the countries that are starting to adopt a similar level of PC as the Scandinavian countries.That is what creates the likes of Breivik.
Thank you for your insight.
MX7 said:
Why do you think that the issue of immigration is taboo?
Even Brown recognised that it's an issue that needed addressing when he said "I have never agreed with the lazy elitism that dismisses immigration as an issue, or portrays anyone who has concerns about immigration as a racist”.
I think that the problem is that you've made a bit of a pig's ear out of trying to suggest that immigration is an issue that should be discussed regardless of ABB, and it's riled a few people on here. In a different context, and expressed with a bit more tact, I think that you might have more support than you have on this thread.
Please don't go all defensive, I do agree with some of what I think you are trying to say, but I'm sorry to say that you've approached the subject in an incredibly clumsy fashion, and probably chosen the wrong thread to do it on, and I have zero doubt that some here have misconstrued your views.
It feels like this thread is very circular, but interesting none the less, and I think it would continue to be so if people accepted that no one on here supports the actions of ABB, and no one pretended that immigration is an subject beyond reproach.
True but it is one thing to use it as a vote winning soundbite its another to actually act and deal with it.Even Brown recognised that it's an issue that needed addressing when he said "I have never agreed with the lazy elitism that dismisses immigration as an issue, or portrays anyone who has concerns about immigration as a racist”.
I think that the problem is that you've made a bit of a pig's ear out of trying to suggest that immigration is an issue that should be discussed regardless of ABB, and it's riled a few people on here. In a different context, and expressed with a bit more tact, I think that you might have more support than you have on this thread.
Please don't go all defensive, I do agree with some of what I think you are trying to say, but I'm sorry to say that you've approached the subject in an incredibly clumsy fashion, and probably chosen the wrong thread to do it on, and I have zero doubt that some here have misconstrued your views.
It feels like this thread is very circular, but interesting none the less, and I think it would continue to be so if people accepted that no one on here supports the actions of ABB, and no one pretended that immigration is an subject beyond reproach.
No matter the country it is a problem no one really wants to talk about or deal with. Until the BNP came along and amde a big public deal about it people werent really prepared to voice it publicly and even now its still taboo.
France is so far as i am aware the only country to actually act on the issue.
MX7 said:
Ok, I must admit that I'm not that familiar with the culture there, but if it's really that bad I find that worrying, and perhaps the most beneficial lessons that can be learnt from this are in the countries that are starting to adopt a similar level of PC as the Scandinavian countries.
Thank you for your insight.
Thanks.Thank you for your insight.
Read back through my posts on this thread, they paint a bleak but unfortunately true picture of Scandinavia.
The thing is that it's not so much the multi-culti itself that is the problem, but the PC brigade that does everything to wash out the culture and history of the country and people they are in charge of, and totally ignore all problems in doing so.
TallbutBuxomly said:
True but it is one thing to use it as a vote winning soundbite its another to actually act and deal with it.
Cameron tried with an immigration cap. I don't think it went too well, but I can't remember the outcome to be honest.TallbutBuxomly said:
No matter the country it is a problem no one really wants to talk about or deal with. Until the BNP came along and amde a big public deal about it people werent really prepared to voice it publicly and even now its still taboo.
I think many have tried, but unfortunately it's a very emotive issue, and until people stop trying to address the issue on the back of ABB/EDF/Hamza threads, I think there's little hope of success or cognitive discussion.I'm not sure what you mean about France, but I think that it would derail the thread too far if I asked here. If you want to start a new thread I would be happy to discuss it.
Finlandia said:
Thanks.
Read back through my posts on this thread, they paint a bleak but unfortunately true picture of Scandinavia.
The thing is that it's not so much the multi-culti itself that is the problem, but the PC brigade that does everything to wash out the culture and history of the country and people they are in charge of, and totally ignore all problems in doing so.
I must admit that I've probably missed out huge parts of the thread. It didn't look like it was really going anywhere between the fateful day and the start of the trial. Sorry!Read back through my posts on this thread, they paint a bleak but unfortunately true picture of Scandinavia.
The thing is that it's not so much the multi-culti itself that is the problem, but the PC brigade that does everything to wash out the culture and history of the country and people they are in charge of, and totally ignore all problems in doing so.
I take what you say at face value, and it is a genuine concern that discussion can be so suppressed in some countries. Are Finland, Sweden and Denmark falling into the same trap?
MX7 said:
I must admit that I've probably missed out huge parts of the thread. It didn't look like it was really going anywhere between the fateful day and the start of the trial. Sorry!
I take what you say at face value, and it is a genuine concern that discussion can be so suppressed in some countries. Are Finland, Sweden and Denmark falling into the same trap?
It's mainly Sweden in the lead, followed by Norway while Denmark is a bit more restrictive and Finland does not really have any problems at all.I take what you say at face value, and it is a genuine concern that discussion can be so suppressed in some countries. Are Finland, Sweden and Denmark falling into the same trap?
There is a party in Sweden that was voted in to parliament, they want to cut the Swedish immigration to the same level as Denmark and Finland.
Finlandia said:
In the neighbour to the East there is a party, which was elected into parliament, who tries to openly discuss these problem, only to be silenced, heckled and called nazis. It has even gone so far as to foreign national criminals have been given media time to openly incite hate towards this democratic party, even the PM said "with these racist views, you can expect violence happening".
It's not good.Finlandia said:
In the neighbour to the East there is a party, which was elected into parliament, who tries to openly discuss these problem, only to be silenced, heckled and called nazis. It has even gone so far as to foreign national criminals have been given media time to openly incite hate towards this democratic party, even the PM said "with these racist views, you can expect violence happening".
It's not good.
Wow! Well, that's not good. We read about the flaws of Scandinavian countries in our gutter press sometimes, but you always feel that they put their own spin on it.It's not good.
I don't mean to doubt you, but I guess you paraphrased "with these racist views, you can expect violence happening", as I tried to read a bit more about it, and Google didn't throw up any results. Do you have a link for what was said? Thanks.
MX7 said:
Wow! Well, that's not good. We read about the flaws of Scandinavian countries in our gutter press sometimes, but you always feel that they put their own spin on it.
I don't mean to doubt you, but I guess you paraphrased "with these racist views, you can expect violence happening", as I tried to read a bit more about it, and Google didn't throw up any results. Do you have a link for what was said? Thanks.
This was after a knife attack on one of the party representants.I don't mean to doubt you, but I guess you paraphrased "with these racist views, you can expect violence happening", as I tried to read a bit more about it, and Google didn't throw up any results. Do you have a link for what was said? Thanks.
Swedish PM said:
- Jag tar avstånd från alla former av våld och hot. Men vill gärna påpeka att de som lever på att driva upp ett vi- och dom-tänkande och ett i grunden hatfullt sätt att se på relationer mellan människor inte ska bli förvånade om sådant händer, sa Fredrik Reinfeldt.
- I reject all forms of violence and threats. But would like to point out that those who live to create an "us" and "them" mentality and have a fundamentally hateful way of looking at relationships between people should not be surprised if that happens, said Fredrik Reinfeldt.
http://www.expressen.se/kvp/reinfeldt-om-sd-attacken-de-ska-inte-bli-forvanade/- I reject all forms of violence and threats. But would like to point out that those who live to create an "us" and "them" mentality and have a fundamentally hateful way of looking at relationships between people should not be surprised if that happens, said Fredrik Reinfeldt.
One may, or may not agree with the political views of the party, but they are a elected party in the parliament of a democracy, and must be treated as such.
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