Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party?

[tangerine_sedge]

768 said:

Slightly bothered me the other day when Starmer was so disgusted at the idea of Brits being poorer than Poles. Didn't hear the usual I'm not saying he's racist he's just using racist language comments though.

https://youtu.be/X0HaVqz88nQ

By GDP - currently UK=6th, Poland=23rd. I'm sure other economic measures are available, but perhaps he was just illustrating the predicted decline in the UKs economic position? Only people who already think that Brits are superior to other nations would have a racism take from SKSs comments.

768 said:

Anyway, I thought this article noting that he would've opposed all the policies that have seen Poland succeed was interesting.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-does-starm...

Ah! We're playing the what Labour might have done game, instead of the what the Tories actually have done game.

I can play a similar game, by stating that Labours policies might have given everyone Unicorns and rainbows, while the tories would bring economic mess(*1). /sarcasm

(*1) Oh wait! They have /double sarcasm

[768]

Racist to think there's no reason the Poles shouldn't do as well as us? I don't follow you there...

I think the Tories have been terrible too, they're not going to give us a top rate of 32% either. Not sure what they have to do with this thread though.

[anonymoususer]

768 said:

. Not sure what they have to do with this thread though.

Me neither.
This is about Sir Keir the man, the politician, the enigma that can exist around any leader.
Keir is going to be our PM soon. Little can stop him.
Some folk had better get used to that. Learn to embrace his politics and what he believes in
After he has told us

[2xChevrons]

tangerine_sedge said:

768 said:

Slightly bothered me the other day when Starmer was so disgusted at the idea of Brits being poorer than Poles. Didn't hear the usual I'm not saying he's racist he's just using racist language comments though.

https://youtu.be/X0HaVqz88nQ

By GDP - currently UK=6th, Poland=23rd. I'm sure other economic measures are available, but perhaps he was just illustrating the predicted decline in the UKs economic position? Only people who already think that Brits are superior to other nations would have a racism take from SKSs comments.

768 said:

Anyway, I thought this article noting that he would've opposed all the policies that have seen Poland succeed was interesting.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-does-starm...

Ah! We're playing the what Labour might have done game, instead of the what the Tories actually have done game.

I can play a similar game, by stating that Labours policies might have given everyone Unicorns and rainbows, while the tories would bring economic mess(*1). /sarcasm

(*1) Oh wait! They have /double sarcasm

As much as I don't like to go into bat for Starmer, my impression of his view that the average Polish family being richer than the average British family by 2030 is 'a shocking state of affairs' is that it's not based on any idea that British people inherently deserve to be richer than Poles, or that Poles/Poland can't or don't deserve to be rich.

More that, as per tangerine_sedge, our countries' relative places in the GDP rankings do not make that situation obvious and highlights how unevenly prosperity and wealth is distributed - geographically and socially - in the UK. And, more implicitly than explicitly, it levels the accusation that the UK has not been maintaining growth and development if a former Eastern Bloc country like Poland that a generation ago had a largely failed centrally-planned industrial economy with stagnant growth and little prosperity, has managed to not only improve itself but overtake us in this rather key measure.

It's not just Poland - lots of eastern/central European countries that a lot of people in Britain would probably still (incorrectly) think of as post-communist or 'Second World' places are either pulling well ahead of the UK in lots of economic and social metrics or are looking set to do so. I suspect that's what SKS means by it being 'shocking' - it highlights how much stagnation (or even reversal) of economic and living standards has been allowed to happen in the UK over the past 15-20 years, and the inequalities in our current system. Put as starkly as SKS did, I think a lot of people in the UK would find it shocking as well; in the popular consciousness Poland is the place that all the plumbers and builders come here from to get rich, after all...

Not that I have an iota of belief that SKS will do anything meaningful about any of that.

[JagLover]

2xChevrons said:

As much as I don't like to go into bat for Starmer, my impression of his view that the average Polish family being richer than the average British family by 2030 is 'a shocking state of affairs' is that it's not based on any idea that British people inherently deserve to be richer than Poles, or that Poles/Poland can't or don't deserve to be rich.

More that, as per tangerine_sedge, our countries' relative places in the GDP rankings do not make that situation obvious and highlights how unevenly prosperity and wealth is distributed - geographically and socially - in the UK. And, more implicitly than explicitly, it levels the accusation that the UK has not been maintaining growth and development if a former Eastern Bloc country like Poland that a generation ago had a largely failed centrally-planned industrial economy with stagnant growth and little prosperity, has managed to not only improve itself but overtake us in this rather key measure.
.

We aren't sixth in GDP per head but around 25th. The fact that a larger country has more GDP isn't particularly surprising as it has more people to generate economic activity. Poland is currently around 45th on GDP per head (exact placing depending on many tiny statelets you include in the rankings some include them others dont).

[urquattroGus]

He did relatively well firing into the open goal that is the Jeremy Chunt Anti Growth budget.

[2xChevrons]

JagLover said:

We aren't sixth in GDP per head but around 25th. The fact that a larger country has more GDP isn't particularly surprising as it has more people to generate economic activity. Poland is currently around 45th on GDP per head (exact placing depending on many tiny statelets you include in the rankings some include them others dont).

Which still leaves the fact (assuming it's true) that the average Polish family will be better off than an average British one by the end of the decade as something notable, and which doesn't reflect well on the UK's social, political and economic arrangements.

And Poland's GDP/C is growing at a faster rate than ours is.

[General Price]

2xChevrons said:

Which still leaves the fact (assuming it's true) that the average Polish family will be better off than an average British one by the end of the decade as something notable, and which doesn't reflect well on the UK's social, political and economic arrangements.

And Poland's GDP/C is growing at a faster rate than ours is.

Will be done by 2027 if Labour win the election.

[johnboy1975]

2xChevrons said:

Not that I have an iota of belief that SKS will do anything meaningful about any of that.

Well, he was bashing the Tories today for putting 2k a year on the average mortgage.

So I assume that's the first thing he'll reverse when he sweeps to power. Gets my vote...oh, wat....

[JagLover]

Think Starmer had one good attack line in calling it a sticky plaster budget.

Showed his usual opportunism about removing the lifetime limit on pensions when it has become increasingly a problem for higher paid public sector workers on DB schemes.

[urquattroGus]

I feel very cross about this anti growth budget, think I will end up having to vote labour for the first time.

[TriumphStag3.0V8]

anonymoususer said:

768 said:

. Not sure what they have to do with this thread though.

Me neither.
This is about Sir Keir the man, the politician, the enigma that can exist around any leader.
Keir is going to be our PM soon. Little can stop him.
Some folk had better get used to that. Learn to embrace his politics and what he believes in
After he has told us

You mean after someone has told him?

[pquinn]

urquattroGus said:

I feel very cross about this anti growth budget, think I will end up having to vote labour for the first time.

Evidence suggests Labour's version would somehow keep all the rises and scrap any drops.

With an extra dose of envy based clawbacks from 'the rich' - see their pensions comments for example.

[768]

urquattroGus said:

I feel very cross about this anti growth budget, think I will end up having to vote labour for the first time.

I'm cross about it too, but I'd like a less anti-growth budget.

[motco]

The Truss/Kwarteng budget was a "budget for growth" and look where that got us!

[S600BSB]

I'm a Labour supporter but thought it was a good budget on the whole. I certainly wouldn't bring back the pension LTA. Always thought it was an unfair stealth tax.

[Gecko1978]

motco said:

The Truss/Kwarteng budget was a "budget for growth" and look where that got us!

A budget that was never implemented that had people panicking when nothing had happened. Reality is they had some good ideas but delivery was shocking

[confused_buyer]

Weren't Labour in favour of dropping or extending LTA 6 months ago?

[oddman]

confused_buyer said:

Weren't Labour in favour of dropping or extending LTA 6 months ago?

They were suggesting an exemption for doctors (like judges get) not a wholesale change to LTA

I think it's a canny move by Hunt - it will take the wind out of the sails of the consultants in the mooted IA over pay.

Suspect at some point int the future HMG will stage a raid on 'fat cat' public sector pensions via another route

[pquinn]

confused_buyer said:

Weren't Labour in favour of dropping or extending LTA 6 months ago?

You aren't demanding they change their one bit of consistent behaviour and actually stick with a policy?

Well I suppose the other thing they're consistent with is saying that they'd always do something different to the other side, either by doing more or doing the opposite, regardless of whether that's actually a good idea.