First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[ZedLeg]

mick987 said:

ZedLeg said:

What clockwork cupcake said.

I am fairly sure of my views but I’m always willing to discuss and change them when evidence suggests that it’s needed.

However in the context of this thread, my mind is very unlikely to be changed by somebody who comes straight in and starts calling trans women he. Our viewpoints are too far apart.

Be honest there is no way you will every change your views no matter what anybody says, which is fair enough but when you say you are willing to changed your views you are not be truthful.

I meant in general. It’s unlikely that I’ll change any of the views I’ve expressed in this thread.

[mick987]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

My *views*? What, you are honestly expecting me to say "Wow, you know what? Maybe I *am* a man! Maybe I *do* want to molest underage girls! I have been convinced by reasoned debate that all my life experiences are invalid! I feel such a fool! Thank you for showing me that I *am* just a whiny little libtard snowflake! My life is changed."

Honestly, it's like telling a gay man that he should change his "views" and start fancying women like a man should.

Where did I say you should change your views? Where did I say you want to Molest underage girls? Where did I say you are a whiny little libtard snowflake? please point it out where I Said any of those things. Nice rant by the way

Edited by mick987 on Wednesday 30th June 19:01

[Clockwork Cupcake]

mick987 said:

Where did I say you should change your views? Where did I say you want to Molest underage girls? Where did I say you are a whiny little libtard snowflake? please point it out where I Sayed any of those things. Nice rant by the way

Where did I say that you (personally) said I did?

I'm talking in the wider context of the thread and the similar threads before it. But you only need to read back to last night to see the "teenage girls" insinuations.

edit: Where you said that people should change their views is when you said "there is no way you will every change your views". You said it to ZedLeg, but since I share many of their views I think it equally applies to me.

[mick987]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Where did I say that you (personally) said I did?

I'm talking in the wider context of the thread and the similar threads before it. But you only need to read back to last night to see the "teenage girls" insinuations.

You replied to my post, again show a post where I have said any of the things you have ranted about, hint you cant because I did not say them nor are they my beliefs.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

mick987 said:

You replied to my post, again show a post where I have said any of the things you have ranted about, hint you cant because I did not say them nor are they my beliefs.

Sorry, forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that ZedLeg should be open to changing their views?

I quoted you and robustly pointed out why that for trans women these are not merely "views"

Your post was just the straw that broke the camel's back

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Wednesday 30th June 19:13

[anonymoususer]

Now the threads been hijacked its doomed
Any observation, viewpoint that doesn't comply with certain mindsets will be classed as an ism

One of the most intelligent posts was some time back that basically addressed what the athlete herself may be thinking
Basically if she knew deep down she had an unfair advantage but chose to overlook it then it was bad form

[Pugaris]

mpkayeuk said:

The viewpoints expressed in this thread are mainstream, and use acceptable language. Of course, you can pick and choose who you debate with, but if you choose not to, you should then accept that you're not prepared to listen to other ideas. There is no single arbiter of the truth, only a shared recognition arrived at through discourse, because the truth changes with time. The argument is not that people *must* engage, only that they understand the weakness in their position if they are not willing to do so. It also doesn't mean the other side's argument suddenly becomes valid. What it does mean is that both sides have lost an opportunity to learn (and so tolerate) the views of the other.

Personally I welcome a robust debate, and as I previously mentioned, risking offending someone is part and parcel of getting to the bottom of things, there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Northernboy has insinuated that CC wants to abuse little girls. It's the EXACT same argument that has been used against people like me (queer men) when straight men didn't want us in their changing rooms. He is not bothered about himself being allowed in changing rooms with young boys, though, even though his demographic is every bit as likely (if not more) to want to abuse little boys as CC is a little girl. It is these types of people I have no interest in engaging with.

[mick987]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Sorry, forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that ZedLeg should be open to changing their views?

I quoted you and robustly pointed out why that for trans women these are not merely "views"

Your post was just the straw that broke the camel's back

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Wednesday 30th June 19:13

No I did not, I said

there is no way you will every change your views no matter what anybody says, which is fair enough

I did not say she should be open to changing her views

[chrispmartha]

anonymoususer said:

Now the threads been hijacked its doomed
Any observation, viewpoint that doesn't comply with certain mindsets will be classed as an ism

One of the most intelligent posts was some time back that basically addressed what the athlete herself may be thinking
Basically if she knew deep down she had an unfair advantage but chose to overlook it then it was bad form

Hijacked id say the last few pages have actually veered into the territory of actual decent discussion

[Clockwork Cupcake]

mick987 said:

No I did not, I said

there is no way you will every change your views no matter what anybody says, which is fair enough

I did not say she should be open to changing her views

I don't see the distinction. And, as I said, this goes beyond "views".

[Dagnir]

chrispmartha said:

ZedLeg said:

Dagnir said:

ZedLeg said:

This analogy goes back to treating trans people like an ideological discussion subject rather than people though. Which has been my whole issue with the you shouldn't discount people who misgender argument in the first place.

That's essentially saying "I find that upsetting, so I'm not going to listen to you".


That's seems childish to me and certainly not a good foundation for worthwhile debate.....or any debate at all really.

Is it? I don't think that's what I said.

Look, I've been around this kind of debate for long enough to know whether someone is arguing in good faith or not. I've got better things to do with my time than get into bad faith arguments so I don't waste my time on them.

Not every opinion is valid and it's ok to ignore some of them.

I think we also have to take into account the posters who are misgendering, you can form an opinion on whether that person is misgendering as an insult from some of the content of their previous posts on the subject, it’s an internet forum and no one has a right to an answer to questions and indeed people can choose who thet want to enter into a ‘debate’ with.

Yup, true.

[Gecko1978]

anonymoususer said:

Now the threads been hijacked its doomed
Any observation, viewpoint that doesn't comply with certain mindsets will be classed as an ism

One of the most intelligent posts was some time back that basically addressed what the athlete herself may be thinking
Basically if she knew deep down she had an unfair advantage but chose to overlook it then it was bad form

Ha owning that as I stated that. Far as I am concerned, she is a bad sportsperson, same with Fallon fox. Dr Rachel Mckinon I am not as informed about I believe her competitors have objected.

Guess its down to the rules in the end if they allow you to compete you can, doesn't mean you should.

[rover 623gsi]

Pugaris said:

mpkayeuk said:

The viewpoints expressed in this thread are mainstream, and use acceptable language. Of course, you can pick and choose who you debate with, but if you choose not to, you should then accept that you're not prepared to listen to other ideas. There is no single arbiter of the truth, only a shared recognition arrived at through discourse, because the truth changes with time. The argument is not that people *must* engage, only that they understand the weakness in their position if they are not willing to do so. It also doesn't mean the other side's argument suddenly becomes valid. What it does mean is that both sides have lost an opportunity to learn (and so tolerate) the views of the other.

Personally I welcome a robust debate, and as I previously mentioned, risking offending someone is part and parcel of getting to the bottom of things, there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Northernboy has insinuated that CC wants to abuse little girls. It's the EXACT same argument that has been used against people like me (queer men) when straight men didn't want us in their changing rooms. He is not bothered about himself being allowed in changing rooms with young boys, though, even though his demographic is every bit as likely (if not more) to want to abuse little boys as CC is a little girl. It is these types of people I have no interest in engaging with.

I see it more as wondering CC is so lacking in empathy for women and girls that they can't understand why a female would feel uncomfortable about seeing a naked male body in a space that is designated for females.

It seems to be transwomen are, in general, much more concerned about their own feelings rather than the feelings of the group that they want to be a part of.

[chrispmartha]

rover 623gsi said:

I see it more as wondering CC is so lacking in empathy for women and girls that they can't understand why a female would feel uncomfortable about seeing a naked male body in a space that is designated for females.

It seems to be transwomen are, in general, much more concerned about their own feelings rather than the feelings of the group that they want to be a part of.

Why do you think CC is naked in these designated spaces?

[ZedLeg]

mick987 said:

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Sorry, forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say that ZedLeg should be open to changing their views?

I quoted you and robustly pointed out why that for trans women these are not merely "views"

Your post was just the straw that broke the camel's back

Edited by Clockwork Cupcake on Wednesday 30th June 19:13

No I did not, I said

there is no way you will every change your views no matter what anybody says, which is fair enough

I did not say she should be open to changing her views

Just to clarify seeing as how this is the second time someone has taken a swing and a miss at my gender.

I’m a cis pansexual man.

[Pugaris]

rover 623gsi said:

I see it more as wondering CC is so lacking in empathy for women and girls that they can't understand why a female would feel uncomfortable about seeing a naked male body in a space that is designated for females.

It seems to be transwomen are, in general, much more concerned about their own feelings rather than the feelings of the group that they want to be a part of.

CC has stated numerous times that she changes privately, so I don't know what you're talking about there. This stupid mental image you have of trans women running around women's bathrooms and changing rooms with their cocks out is just some weird little fantasy of yours, it doesn't have any basis in reality.

Many, many men are uncomfortable with the idea of me seeing them naked in a changing room, because I am queer. How much empathy do you think I should have for them?

[anonymoususer]

Gecko1978 said:

anonymoususer said:

Now the threads been hijacked its doomed
Any observation, viewpoint that doesn't comply with certain mindsets will be classed as an ism

One of the most intelligent posts was some time back that basically addressed what the athlete herself may be thinking
Basically if she knew deep down she had an unfair advantage but chose to overlook it then it was bad form

Ha owning that as I stated that. Far as I am concerned, she is a bad sportsperson, same with Fallon fox. Dr Rachel Mckinon I am not as informed about I believe her competitors have objected.

Guess its down to the rules in the end if they allow you to compete you can, doesn't mean you should.

Sorry I didnt go back to check who had posted it. Unfortunately I dip in and out of stuff and sometimes wading back is just too much effort for me
My bad
Anyway it just struck me as a very fair point.

[ZedLeg]

rover 623gsi said:

I see it more as wondering CC is so lacking in empathy for women and girls that they can't understand why a female would feel uncomfortable about seeing a naked male body in a space that is designated for females.

It seems to be transwomen are, in general, much more concerned about their own feelings rather than the feelings of the group that they want to be a part of.

See this is what I’m talking about, we’re now having someone who’s been posting intelligently in this thread being discussed like a thought experiment because someone can’t keep their stty opinions to themselves.

[rover 623gsi]

Pugaris said:

rover 623gsi said:

I see it more as wondering CC is so lacking in empathy for women and girls that they can't understand why a female would feel uncomfortable about seeing a naked male body in a space that is designated for females.

It seems to be transwomen are, in general, much more concerned about their own feelings rather than the feelings of the group that they want to be a part of.

CC has stated numerous times that she changes privately, so I don't know what you're talking about there. This stupid mental image you have of trans women running around women's bathrooms and changing rooms with their cocks out is just some weird little fantasy of yours, it doesn't have any basis in reality.

Many, many men are uncomfortable with the idea of me seeing them naked in a changing room, because I am queer. How much empathy do you think I should have for them?

i'm talking in general terms - CC and others have

maybe if you get a spare half or hour you should read this thread

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4281706...

[Clockwork Cupcake]

rover 623gsi said:

i'm talking in general terms - CC and others have

I've what?

rover 623gsi said:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4281706...

Mumsnet is probably one of the few places more toxic than PH's NP&E. I value my sanity better than to go clicking that link!

What exactly is your crusade, anyway? Any thread to do with transgenderism and there you are gallantly defending the rights of all cis women against the dire threat that trans women apparently pose to them, like some kind of Paladin. Is that how you see yourself?

I've yet to see a thread on the subject where you haven't been posting your hate for all things trans. Often you overstep the mark and get banned, but you can always be relied upon to pop up again next time.