Rishi Sunak - Prime Minister

[otolith]

sugerbear said:

I can find no good reason why, as a private business, private schools are allowed to avoid adding vat to school fees when the majority of their pupils don't need any form of charity. It isn't envy.

There is a general principle of not charging VAT on non-profit provision of education, it's not a specific carve-out for private schools. The proposal is to make an exception.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-v...

[turbobloke]

S600BSB said:

Apparently there is another tranche of Tory MPs about to announce that they aren’t, after all, going to stand at the GE.

These 20+ Labour MPs have already made their announcement. Rolling updates will be made, it says.

https://labourlist.org/2024/05/rolling-list-labour...

[President Merkin]

So. not even halfway through day one & Rishi's been found out planting Tory stooges in a warehouse Q&A, Tory councillors dressed up with Hi Viz, indistuingishable from the actual staff and asked a bunch of Welsh voters if they were looking forward to Euro 2024. He is just so bad at this.

[S600BSB]

turbobloke said:

S600BSB said:

Apparently there is another tranche of Tory MPs about to announce that they aren’t, after all, going to stand at the GE.

These 20+ Labour MPs have already made their announcement. Rolling updates will be made, it says.

https://labourlist.org/2024/05/rolling-list-labour...

I think at the last count it was 65 Cons standing down. But apparently there are more following yesterday’s 4 July GE announcement. Maybe even a cabinet minister or two..

[sugerbear]

otolith said:

sugerbear said:

I can find no good reason why, as a private business, private schools are allowed to avoid adding vat to school fees when the majority of their pupils don't need any form of charity. It isn't envy.

There is a general principle of not charging VAT on non-profit provision of education, it's not a specific carve-out for private schools. The proposal is to make an exception.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-v...

Let's talk about the issue of who benefits as this is a supposed charity that benefits the community.

Independent schools offer bursaries to exceptional students who would otherwise be unable to afford an education at an elite school. That bursary will remain VAT free even if VAT is added to school fees because there are no fees charged on things that are provided free of charge.

So the exceptional students who can't afford the schools will contine to benefit and will remain VAT free. The ISC says that 6000 children receive free places (means tested). that is levelling up and long may it continue.

Why should the rest receive a tax break?

[eharding]

turbobloke said:

S600BSB said:

Apparently there is another tranche of Tory MPs about to announce that they aren’t, after all, going to stand at the GE.

These 20+ Labour MPs have already made their announcement. Rolling updates will be made, it says.

https://labourlist.org/2024/05/rolling-list-labour...

Of the 21 listed there, 14 already qualify for the UK old age pension, and all but three would become pensioners in the next parliament (and one of those is Natalie Elphicke...) - so it's hardly surprising that they're retiring from Parliament.

I'd do the same analysis for the number of Tory MPs standing down, but I haven't got all afternoon.

[Sway]

sugerbear said:

otolith said:

sugerbear said:

I can find no good reason why, as a private business, private schools are allowed to avoid adding vat to school fees when the majority of their pupils don't need any form of charity. It isn't envy.

There is a general principle of not charging VAT on non-profit provision of education, it's not a specific carve-out for private schools. The proposal is to make an exception.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-v...

Let's talk about the issue of who benefits as this is a supposed charity that benefits the community.

Independent schools offer bursaries to exceptional students who would otherwise be unable to afford an education at an elite school. That bursary will remain VAT free even if VAT is added to school fees because there are no fees charged on things that are provided free of charge.

So the exceptional students who can't afford the schools will contine to benefit and will remain VAT free. The ISC says that 6000 children receive free places (means tested). that is levelling up and long may it continue.

Why should the rest receive a tax break?

Bursaries and scholarships are far from the sole rationale for charitable status...

Indeed, it's very possible some schools will willingly drop charitable status and go profit hunting.

It used to be far more than 6k too - Blair put paid to that...

[otolith]

sugerbear said:

otolith said:

sugerbear said:

I can find no good reason why, as a private business, private schools are allowed to avoid adding vat to school fees when the majority of their pupils don't need any form of charity. It isn't envy.

There is a general principle of not charging VAT on non-profit provision of education, it's not a specific carve-out for private schools. The proposal is to make an exception.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-v...

Let's talk about the issue of who benefits as this is a supposed charity that benefits the community.

Independent schools offer bursaries to exceptional students who would otherwise be unable to afford an education at an elite school. That bursary will remain VAT free even if VAT is added to school fees because there are no fees charged on things that are provided free of charge.

So the exceptional students who can't afford the schools will contine to benefit and will remain VAT free. The ISC says that 6000 children receive free places (means tested). that is levelling up and long may it continue.

Why should the rest receive a tax break?

The tax break on VAT is available to non-profit education providers, not just those with charitable status.

The tax break is on education in general, because education in general is considered to be something people should be encouraged to spend their money on. Like the tax break on books, which also disproportionately benefits middle class families. Maybe this all needs reviewing.

I wouldn't expect bursaries to survive this.

[loafer123]

sugerbear said:

Let's talk about the issue of who benefits as this is a supposed charity that benefits the community.

Independent schools offer bursaries to exceptional students who would otherwise be unable to afford an education at an elite school. That bursary will remain VAT free even if VAT is added to school fees because there are no fees charged on things that are provided free of charge.

So the exceptional students who can't afford the schools will contine to benefit and will remain VAT free. The ISC says that 6000 children receive free places (means tested). that is levelling up and long may it continue.

Why should the rest receive a tax break?

You are delusional.

If the school will lose pupils for affordability reasons, they will reapportion bursary/scholarship monies to subsidise fee levels and reduce the number of exceptional students helped.

[markh1973]

Sway said:

Bursaries and scholarships are far from the sole rationale for charitable status...

Indeed, it's very possible some schools will willingly drop charitable status and go profit hunting.

It used to be far more than 6k too - Blair put paid to that...

This is my local independent school

https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.go...

It appears to have an excess of income over expenditure of circa £1.5m and in the year in question spent more on raising funds than it got in in donations. Has been in trouble in the past for inflating predicted grades of students to help them get university offers as well as being part of a fee fixing cartel.

Part of its charitable services appears to be the old boys network - not clear to me why that is a charitable activity.

[dukeboy749r]

sugerbear said:

Sway said:

President Merkin said:

I'm bored of pointing out that 93% of kids are in state school yet they occup a tiny proportion of top jobs. I made the point again this morning & almost immediately, someone piped up saying VAT on pe damages social mobility.

Do you think that having (based on your arguments) a small number of middle class kids moving to state school is going to change that in any way?

How exactly does charging VAT on PE increase social mobility?

And you talk of mental gymnastics!

Take a look at any private school and look at the resources they have available to them. Do you actually believe that VAT is going to make an ounce of differnce to the outcomes for those schools. In reality it will be an increase on fees of maybe 5% or 10% because they will suck up some of the costs.

I can find no good reason why, as a private business, private schools are allowed to avoid adding vat to school fees when the majority of their pupils don't need any form of charity. It isn't envy.

Since this is on this page and not in its own thread - my son's school is a registered charity (it is private).

That is because of its founding, in 1564, that it acted charitably to help those who could not afford to pay.

Whilst that is an anomaly, it continues to help out every year by hosting foreign students during the Summer and Christmas holidays, for a small fee (the parents of these children pay to have their children come to the UK for 2-6 weeks to experience life and activities in another country).

The nature of the school (a boarding school) means that children can stay at the school and have access to the facilites when not in use during term time.

I went to a state school - a comprehensive. As did my wife.

By paying school fees (we did similarly for my daughter) we wanted to give them the best opportunity for a better education (facilities, smaller class sizes, wider range of subjects and sporting facilities that were better than the state schools, locally).

It did not mean we expected any of them to climb a social ladder post education, other than by networking, to a better role.

So, yes we do not pay VAT, but then we are paying to educate our children, whilst I also pay towards the local schools.

Asking parents to pay VAT is similar to asking foreign holidaymakers to pay VAT on items purchased here, which they cannot reclaim when they leave the Country.

Yes, it is slightly unfair but the loss of stopping it would wipe out the additional sales (and some, I'd imagine) so closing down revenue for brands/shops etc.

By having privately educated children have to go to state schools would, where I live at least, put them under increased pressure (class size, facilities, finding more teachers) than the benefit of some VAT for the same pupils as it would not go to the local schools.

It is the policy of envy not improvement.

[Caddyshack]

loafer123 said:

sugerbear said:

Let's talk about the issue of who benefits as this is a supposed charity that benefits the community.

Independent schools offer bursaries to exceptional students who would otherwise be unable to afford an education at an elite school. That bursary will remain VAT free even if VAT is added to school fees because there are no fees charged on things that are provided free of charge.

So the exceptional students who can't afford the schools will contine to benefit and will remain VAT free. The ISC says that 6000 children receive free places (means tested). that is levelling up and long may it continue.

Why should the rest receive a tax break?

You are delusional.

If the school will lose pupils for affordability reasons, they will reapportion bursary/scholarship monies to subsidise fee levels and reduce the number of exceptional students helped.

We got a scholarship as our daughter has been an England Captain and continues to compete at a high level....we got £500 discount per year....it is not all FREE eductation.

[JagLover]

markh1973 said:

This is my local independent school

https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.go...

It appears to have an excess of income over expenditure of circa £1.5m and in the year in question spent more on raising funds than it got in in donations. Has been in trouble in the past for inflating predicted grades of students to help them get university offers as well as being part of a fee fixing cartel.

Part of its charitable services appears to be the old boys network - not clear to me why that is a charitable activity.

After a £1.2m operating deficit the previous year and it should have a grand total of c£7m in unrestricted reserves. That looks like a school that could likely close with a 10% drop in student numbers to me.

[lornemalvo]

otolith said:

sugerbear said:

I can find no good reason why, as a private business, private schools are allowed to avoid adding vat to school fees when the majority of their pupils don't need any form of charity. It isn't envy.

There is a general principle of not charging VAT on non-profit provision of education, it's not a specific carve-out for private schools. The proposal is to make an exception.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-education-and-v...

VAT was originally intended for luxury items. If a private education is not a luxury item I don't know what is. We now pay VAT on everything including essential services such as those of essential trades, including plumbers, car mechanics etc. (if registered obviously)Seems appropriate to me to charge for private schools.

[lornemalvo]

President Merkin said:

So. not even halfway through day one & Rishi's been found out planting Tory stooges in a warehouse Q&A, Tory councillors dressed up with Hi Viz, indistuingishable from the actual staff and asked a bunch of Welsh voters if they were looking forward to Euro 2024. He is just so bad at this.

Total slime balls, the lot of them.

[loafer123]

Caddyshack said:

loafer123 said:

sugerbear said:

Let's talk about the issue of who benefits as this is a supposed charity that benefits the community.

Independent schools offer bursaries to exceptional students who would otherwise be unable to afford an education at an elite school. That bursary will remain VAT free even if VAT is added to school fees because there are no fees charged on things that are provided free of charge.

So the exceptional students who can't afford the schools will contine to benefit and will remain VAT free. The ISC says that 6000 children receive free places (means tested). that is levelling up and long may it continue.

Why should the rest receive a tax break?

You are delusional.

If the school will lose pupils for affordability reasons, they will reapportion bursary/scholarship monies to subsidise fee levels and reduce the number of exceptional students helped.

We got a scholarship as our daughter has been an England Captain and continues to compete at a high level....we got £500 discount per year....it is not all FREE eductation.

Indeed - both of my kids had the same - one 15%, one 25%...the point is that Bursars may need to reallocate scholarship and bursary funds to general fee subsidies in order to keep rolls full. Schools are massively operationally geared with very high fixed costs - they need to keep themselves full.

[Rivenink]

President Merkin said:

I'm bored of pointing out that 93% of kids are in state school yet they occup a tiny proportion of top jobs. I made the point again this morning & almost immediately, someone piped up saying VAT on pe damages social mobility.

I can explain it to them, I can't make them understand it, They just repeat their mantras ad nauseum until it becomes fact in their heads. It's this kind of alternative reality that leads you to leave the EU, send the desperate to Rwanda, demonise the poor, believe Farage is on your side. The mental gymnastics of it all must be exhausting.

Or... there is no critical thought at all. The truth is always whatever their trusted source of opinions last said. No mental gymnastics needed. One barely even needs to bother thinking.

[otolith]

lornemalvo said:

VAT was originally intended for luxury items. If a private education is not a luxury item I don't know what is.

You are then, I assume, against increasing spending on state schools, on the grounds that any improvement would be a "luxury"?

[ChocolateFrog]

loafer123 said:

You are delusional.

If the school will lose pupils for affordability reasons, they will reapportion bursary/scholarship monies to subsidise fee levels and reduce the number of exceptional students helped.

And.

They often lower the number of £1m premium bond winners too.

Despite having a ticket it's still so remote the chance of 'winning' that it can be classed as statistically insignificant.

[markh1973]

JagLover said:

markh1973 said:

This is my local independent school

https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.go...

It appears to have an excess of income over expenditure of circa £1.5m and in the year in question spent more on raising funds than it got in in donations. Has been in trouble in the past for inflating predicted grades of students to help them get university offers as well as being part of a fee fixing cartel.

Part of its charitable services appears to be the old boys network - not clear to me why that is a charitable activity.

After a £1.2m operating deficit the previous year and it should have a grand total of c£7m in unrestricted reserves. That looks like a school that could likely close with a 10% drop in student numbers to me.

Sevenoaks School will not be closing any time soon - with fees starting at £42k a year this is not a school chosen by parents who are worried too much about the impact of VAT.