Would you install and use an NHS Covid tracking app?
Poll: Would you install and use an NHS Covid tracking app?
Total Members Polled: 875
Discussion
John Locke said:
I don't work in anything any more, but I did sufficient Assembler and machine level (binary) programming in the 1970s to know that it's extremely easy to hide anything which one wishes to.
Respectfully this isn't the 70's.There will be more eyes on the code for these apps than you could possibly imagine.
You don't agree with masks or many of the restrictions and that's up to you.
But please don't spread misinformation about how things like the app work to those who may not know better than to listen to you.
John Locke said:
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: If that was their intention do you think they'd release the source code for the app so anyone can examine it and see for themselves exactly what the app is doing and what data it collects and what it does with it?
That's the thing when you make comments such as "in fact I have my doubts about that now".
People can literally look at the source code and prove those doubts wrong.
Which they have.
Do you also believe that wearing a facemask is good for you?That's the thing when you make comments such as "in fact I have my doubts about that now".
People can literally look at the source code and prove those doubts wrong.
Which they have.
Or are you just randomly changing the subject because you realise you are making a fool of yourself? You have demonstrated you do not understand how the app works and are just making up rubbish.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:John Locke said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: If that was their intention do you think they'd release the source code for the app so anyone can examine it and see for themselves exactly what the app is doing and what data it collects and what it does with it?
That's the thing when you make comments such as "in fact I have my doubts about that now".
People can literally look at the source code and prove those doubts wrong.
Which they have.
Do you also believe that wearing a facemask is good for you?That's the thing when you make comments such as "in fact I have my doubts about that now".
People can literally look at the source code and prove those doubts wrong.
Which they have.
If you don't work in IT and you don't understand what open source is and what it means so far as visibility of what the NHS app does just say so.
No shame in that there's plenty I don't know about other peoples line of work.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_re-identifica...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/t...
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/data-protection/guidance-sta...
Tie what data is available in with other sources of information available to governments and local services and things may start to drop out of apparent nothing
It doesn't even need to be de-anonymised to the individual level. Should there be enough data to show trends then that could be enough to influence policy in a particular direction.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: What does that have to do with anything?
If you don't work in IT and you don't understand what open source is and what it means so far as visibility of what the NHS app does just say so.
No shame in that there's plenty I don't know about other peoples line of work.
I don't work in I.T and this is probably a stupid question but :If you don't work in IT and you don't understand what open source is and what it means so far as visibility of what the NHS app does just say so.
No shame in that there's plenty I don't know about other peoples line of work.
Once they released the app and people could see the source code if they changed it a month later would that still be visible or just the original code ?
coanda said:
De-anonymisation is a thing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_re-identifica...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/t...
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/data-protection/guidance-sta...
Tie what data is available in with other sources of information available to governments and local services and things may start to drop out of apparent nothing
It doesn't even need to be de-anonymised to the individual level. Should there be enough data to show trends then that could be enough to influence policy in a particular direction.
Here is what the government could possibly get. Someone has input into their app that they have tested positive for Covid. Here is the randomly generated code that relates to their phone. It may be relevant that Test and trace will already know the personal details of the person who tested positive without the app including their phone number.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_re-identifica...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/t...
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/data-protection/guidance-sta...
Tie what data is available in with other sources of information available to governments and local services and things may start to drop out of apparent nothing
It doesn't even need to be de-anonymised to the individual level. Should there be enough data to show trends then that could be enough to influence policy in a particular direction.
It then broadcasts the same information. To everyone with the app.
Edited by Graveworm on Sunday 18th October 13:52
coanda said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:John Locke said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: If that was their intention do you think they'd release the source code for the app so anyone can examine it and see for themselves exactly what the app is doing and what data it collects and what it does with it?
That's the thing when you make comments such as "in fact I have my doubts about that now".
People can literally look at the source code and prove those doubts wrong.
Which they have.
Do you also believe that wearing a facemask is good for you?That's the thing when you make comments such as "in fact I have my doubts about that now".
People can literally look at the source code and prove those doubts wrong.
Which they have.
If you don't work in IT and you don't understand what open source is and what it means so far as visibility of what the NHS app does just say so.
No shame in that there's plenty I don't know about other peoples line of work.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_re-identifica...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/t...
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/data-protection/guidance-sta...
Tie what data is available in with other sources of information available to governments and local services and things may start to drop out of apparent nothing
It doesn't even need to be de-anonymised to the individual level. Should there be enough data to show trends then that could be enough to influence policy in a particular direction.
However I find myself distinctly out of energy for this. Believe what you wish to.
I will simply state that the app, as it stands, is not capable of providing data to anyone that could be used to trace or prosecute you. If that changes, it will fall foul of the rules around the Apple/ Google API, and will therefore no longer to able to be used for proximity alerts. There's plenty of other posts on this forum making the position clear, and plenty of documentation in the public realm should you wish to read further.
egor110 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: What does that have to do with anything?
If you don't work in IT and you don't understand what open source is and what it means so far as visibility of what the NHS app does just say so.
No shame in that there's plenty I don't know about other peoples line of work.
I don't work in I.T and this is probably a stupid question but :If you don't work in IT and you don't understand what open source is and what it means so far as visibility of what the NHS app does just say so.
No shame in that there's plenty I don't know about other peoples line of work.
Once they released the app and people could see the source code if they changed it a month later would that still be visible or just the original code ?
And you'd think with all those eyes looking at the code someone might notice that
I'm not a developer and I don't understand code but if you are and you do you can download it all from here.
https://github.com/nhsx
All the stuff above assumes you have some data to actually de-anonymise.
pip t said:
bad company said:
I just deleted the app from my phone.
Your choice of course, but deleting the app from your phone will have no effect on the the data NHS T&T may pass to the police in the right circumstances. It's entirely unrelated.Sadly though this is going to be an effect of this news. The vast majority of the population conflate the manual contact tracing system with the app, and will therefore be discouraged from using it.
It's part of this increasing obsession from the government of using legislation rather than persuading people to do the right thing - the stick rather than the carrot.
No idea if the legality of that though.
survivalist said:
If you are concerned about what data might be passed on to Track and Trace it’s best to leave no details, that or false ones.
No idea if the legality of that though.
You're conflating the app with a piece of paper.No idea if the legality of that though.
If you scan a QR code to check-in they don't have any details to pass on to Track and Trace.
If they hand you a piece of paper and you write "Mickey Mouse" on it it that's something entirely different.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:survivalist said:
If you are concerned about what data might be passed on to Track and Trace it’s best to leave no details, that or false ones.
No idea if the legality of that though.
You're conflating the app with a piece of paper.No idea if the legality of that though.
If you scan a QR code to check-in they don't have any details to pass on to Track and Trace.
If they hand you a piece of paper and you write "Mickey Mouse" on it it that's something entirely different.
In which case using the app for check in only might be the way forward. Saves me writing Tom Hanks all the time
survivalist said:
Thanks. Wasn’t aware of that. Assumed the check in stuff was an add on that did required the details.
In which case using the app for check in only might be the way forward. Saves me writing Tom Hanks all the time
Honestly read/watch this In which case using the app for check in only might be the way forward. Saves me writing Tom Hanks all the time
https://covid19.nhs.uk/privacy-and-data.html
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:survivalist said:
Thanks. Wasn’t aware of that. Assumed the check in stuff was an add on that did required the details.
In which case using the app for check in only might be the way forward. Saves me writing Tom Hanks all the time
Honestly read/watch this In which case using the app for check in only might be the way forward. Saves me writing Tom Hanks all the time
https://covid19.nhs.uk/privacy-and-data.html
As far as I can see this makes it easier to circumvent track and trace at all the places that have replaced contact details with the QR code.
survivalist said:
I just assumed that the check in part was separate. I didn’t see the point in the app for me as I have no intention of isolating on the basis of an app notification.
As far as I can see this makes it easier to circumvent track and trace at all the places that have replaced contact details with the QR code.
It comes back to the earlier points and whether you're using the app because you want to "play your part" or simply because you have to if you want to go the pub or wherever.As far as I can see this makes it easier to circumvent track and trace at all the places that have replaced contact details with the QR code.
You're quite right if you're dishonest you can use the app and simply ignore anything it tells you just like you could write down your mate Bob's name and phone number if they handed you a piece of paper.
Technology won't fix crooked behaviour shocker
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:survivalist said:
I just assumed that the check in part was separate. I didn’t see the point in the app for me as I have no intention of isolating on the basis of an app notification.
As far as I can see this makes it easier to circumvent track and trace at all the places that have replaced contact details with the QR code.
It comes back to the earlier points and whether you're using the app because you want to "play your part" or simply because you have to if you want to go the pub or wherever.As far as I can see this makes it easier to circumvent track and trace at all the places that have replaced contact details with the QR code.
You're quite right if you're dishonest you can use the app and simply ignore anything it tells you just like you could write down your mate Bob's name and phone number if they handed you a piece of paper.
Technology won't fix crooked behaviour shocker
survivalist said:
I don't see it as dishonest or crooked. More of a case of not adding to the already significant levels of hysteria.
No I'm sure you don't.At least you have a bit better idea how the app works now so you can benefit from it without feeling the need to lie.
Probably a different conversation though.
Chatting about this topic with a couple of friends, I'd say this: people think of the the app, the QR check in and the NHS tracking process as all one combined thing. They do not appreciate that the app is anonymous to third parties, they think that NHS tracker staff use the app to follow your movements, and they do not trust the system to work accurately and fairly.
I'd say the government needs to explain the system much more clearly than they have so far. Especially the difference between the (automated, anonymous) app and the (manual, specific) tracing system.
I'd say the government needs to explain the system much more clearly than they have so far. Especially the difference between the (automated, anonymous) app and the (manual, specific) tracing system.
Brave Fart said:
Chatting about this topic with a couple of friends, I'd say this: people think of the the app, the QR check in and the NHS tracking process as all one combined thing. They do not appreciate that the app is anonymous to third parties, they think that NHS tracker staff use the app to follow your movements, and they do not trust the system to work accurately and fairly.
I'd say the government needs to explain the system much more clearly than they have so far. Especially the difference between the (automated, anonymous) app and the (manual, specific) tracing system.
The thing is though, they have. Till they're blue in the face. As have the media, as have independent developers, as have, on a small scale, I.I'd say the government needs to explain the system much more clearly than they have so far. Especially the difference between the (automated, anonymous) app and the (manual, specific) tracing system.
The following is a list of links explaining it, ranging from govt websites, to The Sun, to Wired UK:
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-a...
https://covid19.nhs.uk/pdf/introducing-the-app.pdf
https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/nhs-covid-19-a...
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/nhs-covid-19-track...
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11720019/nhs-covid-1...
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-your-questi...
All found within 5 minutes of Googling 'UK covid 19 app explainer.'
If people want to find out how it works, they can, very very easily, at varying levels of technical detail.
The problem is it's all drowned out by the endless people shouting 'delete it it tracks you,' or similar on social media.
I'm not really sure of the solution. Accurate information is out there, it's just people aren't reading it, or don't trust it. And trust is the problem. As I said a few posts ago, the only way the app can work is if people trust it and have faith in it, because of the very fact that it's impossible to enforce anything through it.
Edited by pip t on Sunday 18th October 15:29
pip t said:
The problem is it's all drowned out by the endless people shouting 'delete it it tracks you,' or similar on social media.
Well, that and the colossal mistake they made with the first incarnation confusing the issue. And I'm not convinced putting everything under NHS branding is helping either.768 said:
Well, that and the colossal mistake they made with the first incarnation confusing the issue. And I'm not convinced putting everything under NHS branding is helping either.
True - and having the words 'track' or 'contact tracing' anywhere near the name of it was a mistake - it immediately makes people think it's going to track you or download the content of their phones contacts app.I've said it several times, but it should always have been referred to as 'exposure notification' - more accurate, and less sinister sounding.
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