HS2, whats the current status ?

[lord trumpton]

As a northerner I'm pleased it's happening.

My only concern is that in such a turbulent time where the job market is evolving where many work from home, gig contracts and incoming electrification...will a rail line be as relevant or needed in the same way in 20 years time?

No clear answer really but certainly gamble too. I just hope the design and implementation allows the rail service to evolve with changing times and fuelling of said trains

[Fittster]

Digga said:

HSB moving its UK HQ to Birmingham.

No it isn't.

[RicksAlfas]

TeaNoSugar said:

Absolutely. Anyone who’s has to commute across the Pennines Will know how badly better connectivity is needed.
Sheffield to Manchester takes a minimum of 50mins by train (which is about 35 miles). Sheffield to Leeds 45 mins.
Leeds to Manchester 50 mins minimum.
Those journey times (for 3 major cities each about 35 miles apart) are an embarrassment in such a wealthy nation.

Overall it’s a generally positive step IMO - but the local connections and the east-west trans-pennine issue will be the real game changer up here, if they ever get done...

Exactly. And you'd be standing up for most of those trips. If they were serious about the Northern Powerhouse they would start the investment there and then work down. As it is they will work up, complete a section and then call it a day.

[borcy]

RicksAlfas said:

TeaNoSugar said:

Absolutely. Anyone who’s has to commute across the Pennines Will know how badly better connectivity is needed.
Sheffield to Manchester takes a minimum of 50mins by train (which is about 35 miles). Sheffield to Leeds 45 mins.
Leeds to Manchester 50 mins minimum.
Those journey times (for 3 major cities each about 35 miles apart) are an embarrassment in such a wealthy nation.

Overall it’s a generally positive step IMO - but the local connections and the east-west trans-pennine issue will be the real game changer up here, if they ever get done...

Exactly. And you'd be standing up for most of those trips. If they were serious about the Northern Powerhouse they would start the investment there and then work down. As it is they will work up, complete a section and then call it a day.

That's my only worry about it, the london-brum section will be built and then due to blah they'll just be a few crumbs left over to re paint a couple of stations and then that'll be it.

The only way to make sure that the whole bit would be built is, as you say, to do the sections in the north first.

[Digga]

Fittster said:

Digga said:

HSB moving its UK HQ to Birmingham.

No it isn't.

Oh. https://www.about.hsbc.co.uk/news-and-media/new-gr...

[Digga]

borcy said:

RicksAlfas said:

TeaNoSugar said:

Absolutely. Anyone who’s has to commute across the Pennines Will know how badly better connectivity is needed.
Sheffield to Manchester takes a minimum of 50mins by train (which is about 35 miles). Sheffield to Leeds 45 mins.
Leeds to Manchester 50 mins minimum.
Those journey times (for 3 major cities each about 35 miles apart) are an embarrassment in such a wealthy nation.

Overall it’s a generally positive step IMO - but the local connections and the east-west trans-pennine issue will be the real game changer up here, if they ever get done...

Exactly. And you'd be standing up for most of those trips. If they were serious about the Northern Powerhouse they would start the investment there and then work down. As it is they will work up, complete a section and then call it a day.

That's my only worry about it, the london-brum section will be built and then due to blah they'll just be a few crumbs left over to re paint a couple of stations and then that'll be it.

The only way to make sure that the whole bit would be built is, as you say, to do the sections in the north first.

Very good point made at this section of the video linked by PRTVR earlier, as to why HS2 needs to come first: https://youtu.be/Nf5avCUNP0M?t=1340

[RicksAlfas]

Digga said:

Very good point made at this section of the video linked by PRTVR earlier, as to why HS2 needs to come first: https://youtu.be/Nf5avCUNP0M?t=1340

Fair point, but... the local commuter trains around here (West Yorkshire) are old, unreliable and overcrowded. Many commuters have not sat down in years because the trains are rammed like sardine cans every morning. They can't put additional carriages on as either "all the rolling stock is down south" or "the local stations aren't long enough to accommodate longer trains". These are basic things which need sorting now, not at some faint point in the future if/when HS2 is finished.

The general feeling around here is that if that money is available, it needs spending on some basic infrastructure improvements up here now, otherwise all HS2 will do is extend the London commuter belt further north, and not actually improve the position of the north. You can already do Leeds to London in just over 2.5 hours, but sometimes it can take that long to go from Leeds to Manchester!

[Fittster]

Digga said:

Fittster said:

Digga said:

HSB moving its UK HQ to Birmingham.

No it isn't.

Oh. https://www.about.hsbc.co.uk/news-and-media/new-gr...

That's a regional office for the UK (which your link makes clear), the head office remains in London. If the head office is going anywhere it's Hong Kong not Brum.

[Digga]

Fittster said:

Digga said:

Fittster said:

Digga said:

HSB moving its UK HQ to Birmingham.

No it isn't.

Oh. https://www.about.hsbc.co.uk/news-and-media/new-gr...

That's a regional office for the UK (which your link makes clear), the head office remains in London. If the head office is going anywhere it's Hong Kong not Brum.

BBC said:

The facilities within HSBC UK’s new headquarters include...

[Digga]

RicksAlfas said:

Digga said:

Very good point made at this section of the video linked by PRTVR earlier, as to why HS2 needs to come first: https://youtu.be/Nf5avCUNP0M?t=1340

Fair point, but... the local commuter trains around here (West Yorkshire) are old, unreliable and overcrowded. Many commuters have not sat down in years because the trains are rammed like sardine cans every morning. They can't put additional carriages on as either "all the rolling stock is down south" or "the local stations aren't long enough to accommodate longer trains". These are basic things which need sorting now, not at some faint point in the future if/when HS2 is finished.

The general feeling around here is that if that money is available, it needs spending on some basic infrastructure improvements up here now, otherwise all HS2 will do is extend the London commuter belt further north, and not actually improve the position of the north. You can already do Leeds to London in just over 2.5 hours, but sometimes it can take that long to go from Leeds to Manchester!

I think it is fair to quote what the, clearly very knowledgeable permanent way engineer says:

You can tripple capacity on regional and extant lines, if you remove the high speed services (which require huge gaps between freight and frequent-stop local trains) from the lines. To do that you must first build HS2.

The benefits from HS2 'free up' space to add new services and routes.

[RicksAlfas]

Digga said:

I think it is fair to quote what the, clearly very knowledgeable permanent way engineer says:

You can tripple capacity on regional and extant lines, if you remove the high speed services (which require huge gaps between freight and frequent-stop local trains) from the lines. To do that you must first build HS2.

The benefits from HS2 'free up' space to add new services and routes.

Sorry if I'm being dim, but the "Northern Powerhouse" needs Leeds - Manchester as a first priority. HS2 doesn't cover that. How can it take existing traffic off a route it doesn't cover? It's going North-South. We need East-West!
https://www.hs2.org.uk/where/journey-planner/

[67Dino]

The proposal for HS2 received a green light tonight, but only after it got a red, yellow and then two yellows

[Digga]

RicksAlfas said:

Digga said:

I think it is fair to quote what the, clearly very knowledgeable permanent way engineer says:

You can tripple capacity on regional and extant lines, if you remove the high speed services (which require huge gaps between freight and frequent-stop local trains) from the lines. To do that you must first build HS2.

The benefits from HS2 'free up' space to add new services and routes.

Sorry if I'm being dim, but the "Northern Powerhouse" needs Leeds - Manchester as a first priority. HS2 doesn't cover that. How can it take existing traffic off a route it doesn't cover? It's going North-South. We need East-West!
https://www.hs2.org.uk/where/journey-planner/

If the services have to run into the rest of the network, it's having the space to accommodate them into that bit that's the issue. Best to watch the whole of the video linked by PRTVR, because he really does explain a lot of stuff extremely well.

[anonymous-user]

Just wondering what those up Newcastle way think of this?
I can see the potential secondary benefits if this is stepping stone to taking freight off the roads but I can't see myself personally benefitting directly from saving a small amount of time on my way to London.
Now if there was a carriage for electric quadricycles or Smart Car sized vehicles then that'd suit me, so I can drive to Leeds and drive around Greater London when I'm there.

[Fittster]

Digga said:

Fittster said:

Digga said:

Fittster said:

Digga said:

HSB moving its UK HQ to Birmingham.

No it isn't.

Oh. https://www.about.hsbc.co.uk/news-and-media/new-gr...

That's a regional office for the UK (which your link makes clear), the head office remains in London. If the head office is going anywhere it's Hong Kong not Brum.

BBC said:

The facilities within HSBC UK’s new headquarters include...

HSBC is a global bank. Maybe try googling what HSBC stands for.

[Digga]

Fittster said:

Digga said:

Fittster said:

Digga said:

Fittster said:

Digga said:

HSB moving its UK HQ to Birmingham.

No it isn't.

Oh. https://www.about.hsbc.co.uk/news-and-media/new-gr...

That's a regional office for the UK (which your link makes clear), the head office remains in London. If the head office is going anywhere it's Hong Kong not Brum.

BBC said:

The facilities within HSBC UK’s new headquarters include...

HSBC is a global bank. Maybe try googling what HSBC stands for.

I used to be a business customer of Midland Bank long before the takeover and then the Hot st Bonus Corporation thereafter, so I am aware of that, yes: https://www.ft.com/content/be53d3c4-8387-11e9-9935...

The discussion is about the UK HQ was being moved.

[rxe]

Digga said:

I think it is fair to quote what the, clearly very knowledgeable permanent way engineer says:

You can tripple capacity on regional and extant lines, if you remove the high speed services (which require huge gaps between freight and frequent-stop local trains) from the lines. To do that you must first build HS2.

The benefits from HS2 'free up' space to add new services and routes.

Doesn't make a lot of sense though does it.

I can free up capacity on a route by building another line to take traffic off the route I want to improve. OK, got that.

But - why is that better than simply adding rails to the route I want to improve? If the issue is the Transpennine Link, then slap some additional rails down and give it more capacity. Will be cheaper than HS2, and is likely to be delivered. Politically, it addresses Northern concerns as the people who voted Conservative can see people with shovels at their stations.

I used to frequently travel on the Euston -> Manchester Route. It's ridiculously quick already. Hardly time to read your emails and have a decent breakfast. If they want to expand capacity, then make the trains longer (and extend the stations as needed)

[Digga]

rxe said:

Digga said:

I think it is fair to quote what the, clearly very knowledgeable permanent way engineer says:

You can tripple capacity on regional and extant lines, if you remove the high speed services (which require huge gaps between freight and frequent-stop local trains) from the lines. To do that you must first build HS2.

The benefits from HS2 'free up' space to add new services and routes.

Doesn't make a lot of sense though does it.

I can free up capacity on a route by building another line to take traffic off the route I want to improve. OK, got that.

But - why is that better than simply adding rails to the route I want to improve? If the issue is the Transpennine Link, then slap some additional rails down and give it more capacity. Will be cheaper than HS2, and is likely to be delivered. Politically, it addresses Northern concerns as the people who voted Conservative can see people with shovels at their stations.

I used to frequently travel on the Euston -> Manchester Route. It's ridiculously quick already. Hardly time to read your emails and have a decent breakfast. If they want to expand capacity, then make the trains longer (and extend the stations as needed)

I'll say it again: YOU NEED TO WATCH THE VIDEO!

[Condi]

rxe said:

I used to frequently travel on the Euston -> Manchester Route. It's ridiculously quick already. Hardly time to read your emails and have a decent breakfast. If they want to expand capacity, then make the trains longer (and extend the stations as needed)

Its not as simple as that. There are huge signalling challenges which are very complicated to do while running a mainline service, so much so that it makes it almost impossible.

HS2 going ahead is the right thing, but only if it then goes to Edinburgh and includes a Liverpool to Hull link as well. On its own, as the plans are, it is half a job.

[popeyewhite]

Ian Geary said:

popeyewhite said:

There's more to life than continuously grasping for money and economic happiness. I couldn't give a monley's about "future proofing "

I'm curious about what stage in their careers a lot of the objectors are? Many of the types protecting ancient woodland round my way are retired professional types with expensive houses.

It's fine for them to now say "there's more to life than money" or "the cost is too high", but I wonder what their reaction would have been if their ability to develop a career / build up equity had been curtailed when they were 20 odd.

Walk a mile in someone else's shoes and all that (or perhaps drive 20 miles in their van trying to get to a customer on time so you can make end meet).

Similar to the nimbys near me who decry losing our green heritage to new housing. But your house was once green space? Mumble mumble that's different...it's not me.

I'm afraid I don't fit your stereotype as an HS2 objector. I'm 50-odd, no intention of retiring soon, live in a small detached house next to an estate, do the same job in the fitness and healthcare sector I've done for the past 35 years. I don't use the trains, nor does anyone else I know, and HS2 won't come anywhere near me, destroy the countryside near me, or flatten anyone's house that I know. I still object though, as i would if anyone threw such a vast sum of money away with the justification it will benefit the country as a whole, which is absolute and total deluded rubbish. If IF the northern section is completed trans Pennine then it will make life easier for those who travel across the country, but it will still only benefit a tiny tiny percent of the population even in that area. Rather than focusing on lazy stereotyping why don't you try and explain why someone who never uses trains and whom HS2 won't benefit geographically should welcome this huge waste of money?