War with Russia

[Siscar]

Mermaid said:

Siscar said:

I'm not defending the Russians but it is easy to see why they might not be happy with how things are, it sounds to me like at least to some extent the actions of the new Ukrainian President in recent days haven't helped a lot.

Russia say it wants to defend Russian speakers/Russians in Ukraine.

Well, yes, and given that their local Parliament and their language have been de-recognised it is possible to see that they might have a point. But don't confuse me with someone who knows much of what I'm talking about, I just think I know enough to know that there is more to it than might first appear.

[sunoco69]

Engineer1 said:

Chechnya where the evidence it was Chechens that actually sparked it is questioned in some circles,

Who fired the 1st shot isn't part of the question really. Did Russia go into Chechnya? Yes.

[alfaman]

Ozzie Osmond said:

neilr said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Given that UK feels entitled to a chunk of Argentina

Is this joke or are you really that uninformed?

You may not have noticed but the Falklands are off the coast of Argentina and 8,000 miles from London. Better ask Santa for an atlas next Xmas because it's probably not covered by your UK satnav.

Crimea, in contrast, is a mere 2,250 miles from London if you feel the need "save" the locals in the name of Western democracy. Good luck with that one.

WOW - I haven't seen such daft logic spouted on PH for a while ...

If territorial proximity determines nationality - then:

Alaska would still be part of Russia

Singapore ruled by Malaysia

Greenland would be part of Canada

Verde Islands would belong to an African nation

and Martinique would belong to somebody else.

[Cyder]

Polish chap at work says many Polish are being called back to military assessment centres for training as some kind of reserve force. He has to go back from here to spend a week or two training.

He seems to think it's in response to the Russia vs Ukraine fiasco ongoing.

[toppstuff]

alfaman said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

neilr said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Given that UK feels entitled to a chunk of Argentina

Is this joke or are you really that uninformed?

You may not have noticed but the Falklands are off the coast of Argentina and 8,000 miles from London. Better ask Santa for an atlas next Xmas because it's probably not covered by your UK satnav.

Crimea, in contrast, is a mere 2,250 miles from London if you feel the need "save" the locals in the name of Western democracy. Good luck with that one.

WOW - I haven't seen such daft logic spouted on PH for a while ...

If territorial proximity determines nationality - then:

Alaska would still be part of Russia

Singapore ruled by Malaysia

Greenland would be part of Canada

Verde Islands would belong to an African nation

and Martinique would belong to somebody else.

And ignoring the irony and utter stupidity of the Argentinians themselves - a nation created by conquering colonials ( who wiped out the indigenous population and even now practice apartheid-like oppression of black people ) trying to play the "against colonial rule" card with the British.

Argentina complaining about the Falklands is probably the single greatest act of hypocrisy in modern times. It is all ran as a distraction by a morally bankrupt ruling elite who preside over a country that is falling apart at the seams.

Anyway, back to Russia.

I can see why the Russians would be keen to protect the interests of those Russian speakers in the south and east of the country, as well as of course the black sea port where the Russian navy is so predominant.

Personally, I think the Ukranians should negotiate partition and reform a new Ukraine under the auspices of the EU. And they should get on with it now. Those Ukrainians with allegiance to Russia are not going to go away. They should make a clean break right now IMO.

[fido]

Siscar said:

Well, yes, and given that their local Parliament and their language have been de-recognised it is possible to see that they might have a point. But don't confuse me with someone who knows much of what I'm talking about, I just think I know enough to know that there is more to it than might first appear.

Pretty much my thoughts. I can't see this ending in a way other than Crimea becomes another 'protectorate' (like South Ossetia) effectively under Russian control. As long as they don't stray into the other bits of Ukraine, which is the bit that might trigger a war between all sides.

[DonkeyApple]

toppstuff said:

And ignoring the irony and utter stupidity of the Argentinians themselves - a nation created by conquering colonials ( who wiped out the indigenous population and even now practice apartheid-like oppression of black people ) trying to play the "against colonial rule" card with the British.

Argentina complaining about the Falklands is probably the single greatest act of hypocrisy in modern times. It is all ran as a distraction by a morally bankrupt ruling elite who preside over a country that is falling apart at the seams.

Anyway, back to Russia.

And populated by German, Spanish and Italian fascists who failed to impose their rule over their fellow people and fled. BA is actually a very melancholy city when you spend time there and watch the people trying to cling on to countries they never wanted to leave.

If they were genuine about wanting the islands under their rule then they would have initiated a program of over population leading to a vote to switch sovereignty a long time ago but in reality the islands serve a better purpose as a political scapegoat once each government has embezzled all the USD loans and bankrupted the country. The simple fact is that the Argentinian elite would be lost without the Falklands. They would lose any presence on the world stage along with losing their scapegoat.

[toppstuff]

DonkeyApple said:

toppstuff said:

And ignoring the irony and utter stupidity of the Argentinians themselves - a nation created by conquering colonials ( who wiped out the indigenous population and even now practice apartheid-like oppression of black people ) trying to play the "against colonial rule" card with the British.

Argentina complaining about the Falklands is probably the single greatest act of hypocrisy in modern times. It is all ran as a distraction by a morally bankrupt ruling elite who preside over a country that is falling apart at the seams.

Anyway, back to Russia.

And populated by German, Spanish and Italian fascists who failed to impose their rule over their fellow people and fled. BA is actually a very melancholy city when you spend time there and watch the people trying to cling on to countries they never wanted to leave.

If they were genuine about wanting the islands under their rule then they would have initiated a program of over population leading to a vote to switch sovereignty a long time ago but in reality the islands serve a better purpose as a political scapegoat once each government has embezzled all the USD loans and bankrupted the country. The simple fact is that the Argentinian elite would be lost without the Falklands. They would lose any presence on the world stage along with losing their scapegoat.

Indeed. Even the Falklanders concede that the easiest thing to have done would have been to send a few Argentine girls over to work on the Islands. Pretty soon they would have married Falklanders and a substantial part of the population would have dual English/Argentine heritage.

Instead we have the most unpleasant, pernicious and duplicitous display of political game playing by a really nasty bunch of nutters.

Anyway, O/T, Back to the Russkies....

[Ozzie Osmond]

Democracy.

Putin will organise a referendum in the Eastern cities of Ukraine. They will vote for Putin. Putin will realign the border accordingly.

Putin will point out that this is "self-determination for the indigenous population". Just like the whole EU/UK/Scotland shambles.

[Jinx]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Democracy.

Putin will organise a referendum in the Eastern cities of Ukraine. They will vote for Putin. Putin will realign the border accordingly.

Putin will point out that this is "self-determination for the indigenous population". Just like the whole EU/UK/Scotland shambles.

Obviously you are confusing Oligarchy with Democracy easy mistake to make in these unenlightened times.

[DMN]

The Guardian are reporting Russian planes violated Ukranian airspace over night, fighters where scrambled to meet them.

[Halb]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26414600
Ukraine crisis: Russia vows troops will stay

AA999 said:

The media's attempts to call this an invasion of sovereignty is very rich considering the UK and USA invaded the sovereignty of a good number of nations in recent years at the protest of Russia and other UN members.

Quite.

[fido]

Jinx said:

Obviously you are confusing Oligarchy with Democracy easy mistake to make in these unenlightened times.

EU. Democracy. Easy to make a mistake indeed. Not saying Putin is a preferable choice, but one man's freedom fighter et al.

[Digga]

Halb said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26414600
Ukraine crisis: Russia vows troops will stay

AA999 said:

The media's attempts to call this an invasion of sovereignty is very rich considering the UK and USA invaded the sovereignty of a good number of nations in recent years at the protest of Russia and other UN members.

Quite.

Can we send our peace envoy Tony over? At least if it all kicks off we can all take solace from the fact he'll be first against the wall.

[Bluebarge]

AA999 said:

'We' seem to be approving the forced removal of an elected government in favour of a neo-nazi far right unelected 'regime'.

bks. It's an interim govt encompassing just about everyone in Ukrainian politics and is there to hold the ring till elections in TWO months' time. Putin is about preventing elections until he can influence the result.

This isn't about right vs left, it's about a genuinely fascist country with a veneer of democracy attempting to crush democracy in a neighbouring country for its own geopolitical ends. The fact that you can't see that means that I am very interested in selling you London Bridge which a good friend of mine can let you have for a song.

[jshell]

My Ukranian ex-weapons scientist colleague reckons that partition would be acceptable for those Ukranians that want to side with the EU!

[airbusA346]

Bluebarge said:

bks. It's an interim govt encompassing just about everyone in Ukrainian politics and is there to hold the ring till elections in TWO months' time. Putin is about preventing elections until he can influence the result.

This isn't about right vs left, it's about a genuinely fascist country with a veneer of democracy attempting to crush democracy in a neighbouring country for its own geopolitical ends. The fact that you can't see that means that I am very interested in selling you London Bridge which a good friend of mine can let you have for a song.

What about the fact the interim government have alienated the Russian speaking population.

[Mermaid]

jshell said:

My Ukranian ex-weapons scientist colleague reckons that partition would be acceptable for those Ukranians that want to side with the EU!

Referendum time.

[Pommygranite]

Interesting that every instance of uprising in the last few years where the 'people' have overthrown the Government has gone from being all great in Americas eyes to a complete nightmare and annoyance for them.

Perhaps they should start realising they should be careful what they wish for.

[Siscar]

Bluebarge said:

bks. It's an interim govt encompassing just about everyone in Ukrainian politics and is there to hold the ring till elections in TWO months' time. Putin is about preventing elections until he can influence the result.

This isn't about right vs left, it's about a genuinely fascist country with a veneer of democracy attempting to crush democracy in a neighbouring country for its own geopolitical ends. The fact that you can't see that means that I am very interested in selling you London Bridge which a good friend of mine can let you have for a song.

Isn't a national President scrapping a reasonably long standing regional Parliament and banning the official use of the language that the majority of the population in an area speak a little undemographic?

What Ukraine is doing to Crimea is not quite the UK scrapping the Parliament in Holyrood and outlawing talking in a Scottish school or court with a Scottish accent, but it's getting on that way, you can't expect the people there to be happy about it.