Junior Doctor's contracts petition
Discussion
sidicks said:
Patent said:
The government want to increase the number of doctors working at weekends. They sat that more people die at the weekend because of the current financially punitive contract that requires a Trust to pay a doctor more to work at the weekend - currently classified as unsociable hours.
How can you get a set number of people to work more collective hours without paying them more and maintain the same service provision at other times.....
Logic dictates - you make them work more hours for less pay! Simple really. And modelling of the new contract appears to bear this out with pay cuts of upto 30% postulated.
And please don't forget - pointless increasing the number of dr if you don't increase diagnostics, nurses, physios etc etc etc
And - the teams providing emergency care during the week are no different to the teams providing the care on the weekends - the number of on call doctors is the same!
From the government response to the petition::How can you get a set number of people to work more collective hours without paying them more and maintain the same service provision at other times.....
Logic dictates - you make them work more hours for less pay! Simple really. And modelling of the new contract appears to bear this out with pay cuts of upto 30% postulated.
And please don't forget - pointless increasing the number of dr if you don't increase diagnostics, nurses, physios etc etc etc
And - the teams providing emergency care during the week are no different to the teams providing the care on the weekends - the number of on call doctors is the same!
1. This is not a cost cutting exercise.
• We are categorically not seeking to save any money from the junior doctors’ pay bill.
Patent said:
Clever wording. So the pay bill is the same but you want more doctors in work more of the time. More hours for the same pay is, in effect, a pay cut.
I do not want anything, so please don't put words into my mouth. I'm quoting from the Government response to the petition and trying to discuss the issues and reconcile the apparent differences between what is being claimed and what is actually being proposed...The response also emphasises:
We have guaranteed that a new contract will not impose longer hours
So if salaries aren't going down and hours aren't going up, how is it a pay cut?
VolvoT5 said:
sidicks said:
In what world is increasing funding above the rate of inflation equal to 'aggressive cutbacks' ??
Health cost inflation greater than standard rate of inflation, an ageing (but not healthier) population plus expensive reorganisations means effectively real cuts. Even the government reckon 22bn 'efficiency savings' are required to make their figures work..... 22bn is total fantasy. They are slowly starving the NHS of cash and when it all falls down they will throw their hands up in the air and argue it is proof the NHS is 'unfit for purpose'. Problem with the NHS is people won't realise what a great service we had until it is gone.... or at least too damaged to save.
Edited by VolvoT5 on Saturday 17th October 20:35
http://election2015.ifs.org.uk/nhs-spending
Health care spending is still growing in real terms, just at a lower rate than before. With a deficit still around 5% of GDP, and a draconian squeeze on other areas of spending, it is questionable how much more we can actually increase spending by.
sidicks said:
I do not want anything, so please don't put words into my mouth. I'm quoting from the Government response to the petition and trying to discuss the issues and reconcile the apparent differences between what is being claimed and what is actually being proposed...
The response also emphasises:
We have guaranteed that a new contract will not impose longer hours
So if salaries aren't going down and hours aren't going up, how is it a pay cut?
I was responding to the government quote - not you! Apologies if that wasn't clear - I know that your quote was from the response and not from you per se. The response also emphasises:
We have guaranteed that a new contract will not impose longer hours
So if salaries aren't going down and hours aren't going up, how is it a pay cut?
I don't have all the answers......but I cannot see how it is possible to have more doctors working at the weekend, provide the same service during the week and do it without increasing the number of doctors or the number of hours doctors work. Both of those propositions are not cost neutral!
Patent said:
sidicks said:
I do not want anything, so please don't put words into my mouth. I'm quoting from the Government response to the petition and trying to discuss the issues and reconcile the apparent differences between what is being claimed and what is actually being proposed...
The response also emphasises:
We have guaranteed that a new contract will not impose longer hours
So if salaries aren't going down and hours aren't going up, how is it a pay cut?
I was responding to the government quote - not you! Apologies if that wasn't clear - I know that your quote was from the response and not from you per se. The response also emphasises:
We have guaranteed that a new contract will not impose longer hours
So if salaries aren't going down and hours aren't going up, how is it a pay cut?
I don't have all the answers......but I cannot see how it is possible to have more doctors working at the weekend, provide the same service during the week and do it without increasing the number of doctors or the number of hours doctors work. Both of those propositions are not cost neutral!
jjlynn27 said:
I'm not going to answer for abucd4, but I do have couple of questions for you, as you come across as sidick-lite (just my impression don't get hung-up on that too much);
- do you think that there is adequate number of jd (this is the thread about junior doctors) in NHS?
- do you think that junior doctors are adequately remunerated.
- what facts are you referring to when you ask if 'facts are inconvenient'.
I'm not hung up on any comments you make- you're unimportant in my life.- do you think that there is adequate number of jd (this is the thread about junior doctors) in NHS?
- do you think that junior doctors are adequately remunerated.
- what facts are you referring to when you ask if 'facts are inconvenient'.
I don't know how many jd there are. I read the independent report attached to the petition link and accepted their conclusions as I presume they did their due dligence before publication.
I don't know what jd get paid. I refer you to my previous comment re the independent report.
The (unanswered) question was what cuts have been made to NHS spending. The facts are that spending has increased not decreased.
Rovinghawk said:
I'm not hung up on any comments you make- you're unimportant in my life.
He certainly thinks a lot of himself.Rovinghawk said:
I don't know how many jd there are. I read the independent report attached to the petition link and accepted their conclusions as I presume they did their due dligence before publication.
I don't know what jd get paid. I refer you to my previous comment re the independent report.
For some reason the independent report appears to be being ignored!I don't know what jd get paid. I refer you to my previous comment re the independent report.
Rovinghawk said:
The (unanswered) question was what cuts have been made to NHS spending. The facts are that spending has increased not decreased.
The "inconvenient truth" for some!Rovinghawk said:
The (unanswered) question was what cuts have been made to NHS spending. The facts are that spending has increased not decreased.
This puzzles me, as well. More people employed, bigger budgets doesn't seem like a cut. Other govt departments have had cuts which involve smaller budgets and fewer people, which is a cut - police, for example.I suspect I'm suffering from an excess of spin from both sides
eldar said:
Rovinghawk said:
The (unanswered) question was what cuts have been made to NHS spending. The facts are that spending has increased not decreased.
This puzzles me, as well. More people employed, bigger budgets doesn't seem like a cut. Other govt departments have had cuts which involve smaller budgets and fewer people, which is a cut - police, for example.I suspect I'm suffering from an excess of spin from both sides
sidicks said:
mph1977 said:
more clippy cloppy heeled alledged Nurse clipboard carrier,s more lay managers more lease cars, pot plants and coffee machines in shag pile carpeted office ...
So there's massive scope to save money in the NHS without impacting patient care?Dixy said:
A junior doctor fresh from graduating gets paid £22k basic at present, the report does NOT say what will be paid after.
But given that the government has said:"We are categorically not seeking to save any money from the junior doctors’ pay bill", I think we can safely say that the answer is >= £22k+
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff