Jeremy Corbyn Vol. 2

[48Valves]

98elise said:

So.is my CEng Father not actually an Engineer? He's spent the last 40 years designing stuff...now I find out he's a fraud!

The Engineering Council do NOT require a degree for you to become chartered.

Next time I see him I'll ask him where his spanners are

Spot the degree snob. My world is full of them.

[RYH64E]

98elise said:

So.is my CEng Father not actually an Engineer? He's spent the last 40 years designing stuff...now I find out he's a fraud!

The Engineering Council do NOT require a degree for you to become chartered.

Next time I see him I'll ask him where his spanners are

This is what the Institution of Mechanical Engineers require:

http://www.imeche.org/membership-registration/beco...

IMechE said:

ACADEMIC REQUIREMENTS

The UK Standard for Professional Engineering Competence (UK-SPEC) has standardised the academic requirements for CEng and IEng registration:

CEng:

Accredited BEng (Hons) degree plus appropriate Masters degree or
Accredited BEng (Hons) degree plus approved Further Learning to Masters level or
Accredited MEng

Other disciplines maybe less rigorous.

[ellroy]

A degree is worth having, but a chartered engineer pisses on wet behind the ears degree level grads from a great height.

To be double chartered? Your Dad's clearly a very clever, and hard working, bloke; you should be very proud of him.

On the standard qualifications piece, that's now. You could achieve chartered status in differing ways a few years ago, certainly with the iMechE. The standard and rigours were deemed to be equivalent.

Edited by ellroy on Monday 3rd October 21:02

[RYH64E]

ellroy said:

A degree is worth having, but a chartered engineer pisses on wet behind the ears degree level grads from a great height.

To be double chartered? Your Dad's clearly a very clever, and hard working, bloke; you should be very proud of him.

On the standard qualifications piece, that's now. You could achieve chartered status in differing ways a few years ago, certainly with the iMechE. The standard and rigours were deemed to be equivalent.

Edited by ellroy on Monday 3rd October 21:02

A few years ago? It's nearly 30 years since I went through the chartered process and a degree plus further training was required even then, it may have been possible to achieve chartered status without a degree but that would have been very unorthodox.

[Crackie]

irocfan said:

Crackie said:

irocfan said:

pim said:

...the majority of kids having a poor education.

and the question happens to be why have educational standards dropped over the years? Surely it couldn't have anything to do with teachers being more interested in politics than y'know actually teaching

Complete and absolute B0LL0CKS............. your education may have been sub standard but to stereotype teachers that way is beyond ridiculous.

well then teach care to explain how our educational standards have dropped off so 'impressively'?

Another poor assumption......I'm not a teacher. Have you spoken to a teacher, socially, since the year 2000 ?? If you do, you're likely to hear frustrations about curriculums which are changed on the whims of naive ministers, classes with 35 students or more, lack of resources for up to date hardware and software. The biggest issue I'm aware of is that teaching staff are expected to report students' progress to such a degree that the teaching process is neglected as a result.

Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 4th October 08:06

[JawKnee]

Smiler. said:

Astounding arrogance. Not unexpected though.

Would you trust a surgeon who hasn't studied medicine?



It's arrogant to think someone who hasn't spent that time and effort studying has the same knowledge in their domain as someone who hasn't. The same applies to other subjects and professions. V6Pushfit's post is spot on.

[anonymous-user]

JawKnee said:

Smiler. said:

Astounding arrogance. Not unexpected though.

Would you trust a surgeon who hasn't studied medicine?



It's arrogant to think someone who hasn't spent that time and effort studying has the same knowledge in their domain as someone who hasn't. The same applies to other subjects and professions. V6Pushfit's post is spot on.

I miss you babes

[anonymous-user]

For the first, and I suspect last time I find myself agreeing with JawKnee. An intelligent person can teach themselves some of the skills, calculations and rules of thumb needed in a narrow field of engineering but they will never be able to apply those to anything even slighly different with out the maths/ physics/material science etc to do the calculations from first principles. Many grads don't have practical experience or much common sense that's true but they will all gain that. Many non-grads can't do the most basic calculations and most of them will never be able to.

fblm MA MEng

[Dr Jekyll]

JawKnee said:

Would you trust a surgeon who hasn't studied medicine?



It's arrogant to think someone who hasn't spent that time and effort studying has the same knowledge in their domain as someone who hasn't. The same applies to other subjects and professions. V6Pushfit's post is spot on.

Just because someone hasn't got a degree doesn't mean they haven't studied the subject and a doctor, particularly a surgeon, has a great deal of on the job training quite apart from academic study.

For many roles the grad/apprentice choice is a bit like having the choice between having your appendix removed by someone with plenty of experience and who had performed the same operation successfully many times but hadn't actually taken the final medical exams, and someone who has read the books and passed the exams but not actually seen a patient before.

If you needed urgent first aid would you turn away a qualified first aider or final year medical student in favour of a professor of Oncology?

[jmorgan]

I have played the Operation game, pass the scalpel.

[alock]

JawKnee said:

Would you trust a surgeon who hasn't studied medicine?



It's arrogant to think someone who hasn't spent that time and effort studying has the same knowledge in their domain as someone who hasn't. The same applies to other subjects and professions. V6Pushfit's post is spot on.

So you also find this decision by Corbyn ridiculous?

[98elise]

RYH64E said:

ellroy said:

A degree is worth having, but a chartered engineer pisses on wet behind the ears degree level grads from a great height.

To be double chartered? Your Dad's clearly a very clever, and hard working, bloke; you should be very proud of him.

On the standard qualifications piece, that's now. You could achieve chartered status in differing ways a few years ago, certainly with the iMechE. The standard and rigours were deemed to be equivalent.

Edited by ellroy on Monday 3rd October 21:02

A few years ago? It's nearly 30 years since I went through the chartered process and a degree plus further training was required even then, it may have been possible to achieve chartered status without a degree but that would have been very unorthodox.

My Fathers was about 10 years ago IIRC

[Smiler.]

JawKnee said:

Smiler. said:

Astounding arrogance. Not unexpected though.

Would you trust a surgeon who hasn't studied medicine?



It's arrogant to think someone who hasn't spent that time and effort studying has the same knowledge in their domain as someone who hasn't. The same applies to other subjects and professions. V6Pushfit's post is spot on.

Ah, my old friend Mr McGee, with a knee for a jaw & a Jaw for a Knee!

So tell me o wise one, what about those who have undertaken such time & effort (and more) but don't have a degree?

And while we're at it, how about your stance on the insidious dumbing down of further/higher education by the Grand Tit Blair & his cronies?


Oh, and Pushfit is 100% wrong.

fblm said:

For the first, and I suspect last time I find myself agreeing with JawKnee. An intelligent person can teach themselves some of the skills, calculations and rules of thumb needed in a narrow field of engineering but they will never be able to apply those to anything even slighly different with out the maths/ physics/material science etc to do the calculations from first principles. Many grads don't have practical experience or much common sense that's true but they will all gain that. Many non-grads can't do the most basic calculations and most of them will never be able to.

fblm MA MEng

I hope no-one susses me out then. I wonder what all that stuff I've been doing for the last decade actually means

[98elise]

JawKnee said:

Smiler. said:

Astounding arrogance. Not unexpected though.

Would you trust a surgeon who hasn't studied medicine?



It's arrogant to think someone who hasn't spent that time and effort studying has the same knowledge in their domain as someone who hasn't. The same applies to other subjects and professions. V6Pushfit's post is spot on.

Why do you assume someone without a degree has not spent time and effort training.

I started my a career as an Engineer (ONC/HND). That was 4 years of classroom study and 1 year of on job training. My training probably was way more involved and broad ranging that a degree.

I've trained to fabricate metal components to 3 thou with just hand tools. I can operate any machine tool available, and fabricate anything from a simple go-no go gauge to building my own transformers or electronic ignition system.

I've been trained to diagnose and fix everything from hydraulics to extremely complex electronic system. Imagine a single system filling a large room room and you personalty are responsible for keeping it operational with no access to any other outside help.

I have been taught to work in teams, under extreme stress, and to lead.

A degree is not the only way to learn. In IT (my current career) its worth very little. You would do better learning SQL etc or getting some professional qualifications, then getting some solid experience.

Edited by 98elise on Tuesday 4th October 08:51

[RYH64E]

98elise said:

I've trained to fabricate metal components to 3 thou with just hand tools. I can operate any machine tool available, and fabricate anything from a simple go-no go gauge to building my own transformers or electronic ignition system.

I've been trained to diagnose and fix everything from hydraulics to extremely complex electronic system. Imagine a single system filling a large room room and you personalty are responsible for keeping it operational with no access to any other outside help.

And that's the difference, you've been trained to fabricate components with hand and machine tools, and diagnose and fix faults, none of which forms part of a Professional Engineer's remit. As I said before, mechanics fix things, technicians make things, professional engineers design things.

Even back when I studied engineering (in the early 80s) the course was more about maths and computing than anything else, working on machines was a very small part of our Engineering Practice module and was only intended to give us an appreciation of the practical side of the business not so that we could pursue our careers in a workshop...

[98elise]

RYH64E said:

98elise said:

I've trained to fabricate metal components to 3 thou with just hand tools. I can operate any machine tool available, and fabricate anything from a simple go-no go gauge to building my own transformers or electronic ignition system.

I've been trained to diagnose and fix everything from hydraulics to extremely complex electronic system. Imagine a single system filling a large room room and you personalty are responsible for keeping it operational with no access to any other outside help.

And that's the difference, you've been trained to fabricate components with hand and machine tools, and diagnose and fix faults, none of which forms part of a Professional Engineer's remit. As I said before, mechanics fix things, technicians make things, professional engineers design things.

Even back when I studied engineering (in the early 80s) the course was more about maths and computing than anything else, working on machines was a very small part of our Engineering Practice module and was only intended to give us an appreciation of the practical side of the business not so that we could pursue our careers in a workshop...

engineer
ɛndʒɪˈnɪə/Submit
noun
1.
a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures.
synonyms: designer, planner, builder, architect, producer, fabricator, developer, creator;

[johnxjsc1985]

98elise said:

engineer
?nd???n??/Submit
noun
1.
a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures.
synonyms: designer, planner, builder, architect, producer, fabricator, developer, creator;

I think he must see you as Fred Dibnar

[RYH64E]

98elise said:

RYH64E said:

98elise said:

I've trained to fabricate metal components to 3 thou with just hand tools. I can operate any machine tool available, and fabricate anything from a simple go-no go gauge to building my own transformers or electronic ignition system.

I've been trained to diagnose and fix everything from hydraulics to extremely complex electronic system. Imagine a single system filling a large room room and you personalty are responsible for keeping it operational with no access to any other outside help.

And that's the difference, you've been trained to fabricate components with hand and machine tools, and diagnose and fix faults, none of which forms part of a Professional Engineer's remit. As I said before, mechanics fix things, technicians make things, professional engineers design things.

Even back when I studied engineering (in the early 80s) the course was more about maths and computing than anything else, working on machines was a very small part of our Engineering Practice module and was only intended to give us an appreciation of the practical side of the business not so that we could pursue our careers in a workshop...

engineer
?nd???n??/Submit
noun
1.
a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or structures.
synonyms: designer, planner, builder, architect, producer, fabricator, developer, creator;

Are we discussing Chartered and professional engineers, or the man who comes out to fix your washing machine?

Anyone can call themselves an engineer, but if you want to become Chartered then formal education is key, which now means at least a Batchelors degree and more likely a Masters, being able to use a lathe is a useful skill, but of little if any interest to the IMechE.

[Stickyfinger]

Idiots.....a fluff argument.

Engineer : can make fantastic stuff, big or small, highly skilled on a 12 head milling machine, BUT, cannot work out theoretical stress load factors in a Aircraft Wing at 30.000ft

Engineer : can work out stress load factors, design space ships and engines, cannot make st on a machine.

please stop now, this is about an uneducated gobby left wing moron being put in charge of the countries Education FFS !

[johnxjsc1985]

Very Surprised Jezza hasn't been on the BBC giving his blow by blow of the Conservative Conference. He is probably busy making Jam now after a very good fruit season