Light aircraft disappears with two people on board...
Discussion
Ayahuasca said:
Lst's face it there are many, many things that could have brought down the aircraft. Seagull though the windscreen? Contaminated fuel? Pilot medical emergency? Faulty altimeter? Until they raise the wreckage - which they probably won't - there is no way of knowing.
The lesson is that flying a single engined aircraft, at night, in dodgy weather, over sea, over rough sea with strong tides, whilst lacking relevant qualifications, is setting up most of the disaster dominos in a neat row. All it takes is the last, unexpected, one to fall over...
Should we add single crew to that list, as a hedge against medical emergency at least?The lesson is that flying a single engined aircraft, at night, in dodgy weather, over sea, over rough sea with strong tides, whilst lacking relevant qualifications, is setting up most of the disaster dominos in a neat row. All it takes is the last, unexpected, one to fall over...
Ayahuasca said:
Lst's face it there are many, many things that could have brought down the aircraft. Seagull though the windscreen? Contaminated fuel? Pilot medical emergency? Faulty altimeter? Until they raise the wreckage - which they probably won't - there is no way of knowing.
The lesson is that flying a single engined aircraft, at night, in dodgy weather, over sea, over rough sea with strong tides, whilst lacking relevant qualifications, is setting up most of the disaster dominos in a neat row. All it takes is the last, unexpected, one to fall over...
I bet the seagulls were grounded.The lesson is that flying a single engined aircraft, at night, in dodgy weather, over sea, over rough sea with strong tides, whilst lacking relevant qualifications, is setting up most of the disaster dominos in a neat row. All it takes is the last, unexpected, one to fall over...
Ayahuasca said:
Lst's face it there are many, many things that could have brought down the aircraft. Seagull though the windscreen? Contaminated fuel? Pilot medical emergency? Faulty altimeter? Until they raise the wreckage - which they probably won't - there is no way of knowing.
The lesson is that flying a single engined aircraft, at night, in dodgy weather, over sea, over rough sea with strong tides, whilst lacking relevant qualifications, is setting up most of the disaster dominos in a neat row. All it takes is the last, unexpected, one to fall over...
So why did the pilot request an altitude change from 5000 ft to 2000 ft and why was the plane 'shaking itself to bits'? The lesson is that flying a single engined aircraft, at night, in dodgy weather, over sea, over rough sea with strong tides, whilst lacking relevant qualifications, is setting up most of the disaster dominos in a neat row. All it takes is the last, unexpected, one to fall over...
GT119 said:
So why did the pilot request an altitude change from 5000 ft to 2000 ft and why was the plane 'shaking itself to bits'?
ice forming and heavy cloud?copied from a pilot on another thread who flew into Guernsay that eve
I flew in from London Luton that night. We arrived into Guernsey around 1745 LCT. We were then driving around lost until around 1900, the weather was more or less the same as when we arrived.
The tops of the clouds from Luton to Guernsey were around 5000ft for the whole flight. I can't comment on the icing other than there was some. We only had the anti-ice for the engine and windshield on and it was light at best. However, we were doing 250kts descending through it and therefore our TAT was around +3 if I recall correctly. The SAT was certainly below zero. We were only in it for around a minute or so before popping out the bottom of it. Ceilings at that point were 1900'
The really foul weather didn't start rolling through until around 0200 LCT. I would hazard a guess that at around 2023, the weather would still be well within the realm of that aircrafts capability. And certainly able for the aircraft to turn 180 and fly back out of the icing.
rallycross said:
GT119 said:
So why did the pilot request an altitude change from 5000 ft to 2000 ft and why was the plane 'shaking itself to bits'?
ice forming and heavy cloud?copied from a pilot on another thread who flew into Guernsay that eve
I flew in from London Luton that night. We arrived into Guernsey around 1745 LCT. We were then driving around lost until around 1900, the weather was more or less the same as when we arrived.
The tops of the clouds from Luton to Guernsey were around 5000ft for the whole flight. I can't comment on the icing other than there was some. We only had the anti-ice for the engine and windshield on and it was light at best. However, we were doing 250kts descending through it and therefore our TAT was around +3 if I recall correctly. The SAT was certainly below zero. We were only in it for around a minute or so before popping out the bottom of it. Ceilings at that point were 1900'
The really foul weather didn't start rolling through until around 0200 LCT. I would hazard a guess that at around 2023, the weather would still be well within the realm of that aircrafts capability. And certainly able for the aircraft to turn 180 and fly back out of the icing.
Birdstrike to the windscreen is highly improbable, especially as the bird would have had to pass through the propeller first.
I see a bunch of muppets with more money than sense have donated near £300k to resume the search. Great, and then the poor buggers that die whilst the resources are out looking for these corpses can have a GoFundMe page set up to find their bodies etc. etc.
It's sad, but they made some bad choices and paid the price. Happens day in day out, to people who are not footballers and no one gives a hairy crap.
It's sad, but they made some bad choices and paid the price. Happens day in day out, to people who are not footballers and no one gives a hairy crap.
Ayahuasca said:
Lst's face it there are many, many things that could have brought down the aircraft. Seagull though the windscreen? Contaminated fuel? Pilot medical emergency? Faulty altimeter? Until they raise the wreckage - which they probably won't - there is no way of knowing.
The lesson is that flying a single engined aircraft, at night, in dodgy weather, over sea, over rough sea with strong tides, whilst lacking relevant qualifications, is setting up most of the disaster dominos in a neat row. All it takes is the last, unexpected, one to fall over...
As another poster mentioned perhaps another experienced pilot might also have been a good idea when flying on a night like the one in this case. But as pointed out above there could be any number of things (or even just one) of which could have brought (or have combined) to bring the aircraft down. The lesson is that flying a single engined aircraft, at night, in dodgy weather, over sea, over rough sea with strong tides, whilst lacking relevant qualifications, is setting up most of the disaster dominos in a neat row. All it takes is the last, unexpected, one to fall over...
Flying that night would have been at the discretion of the pilot, A decision which the passenger would be relying on the pilot to make properly, the poor passenger would have no way of determining if the conditions were acceptable or not, and was in the hands of the pilot.
Many years ago I was talking to Peter De Haviland on where he drew the limits on whether or not to fly. He told me he used what he called his rule of three, where if any three things about the impending flight were not usual, he would not fly. I remembered that clearly but being a wimp I changed that to my rule of `If in doubt leave it out' and it has saved my bacon on many an occasion. I would rather be regarded as a live wimp, than a dead hero.
Dr Jekyl said:
The fact that the pilot was also a plumber is totally irrelevant.
Are you sure about that? Do you think the footballer knew that the pilot wasn’t a professional, full time pilot? From reports, the pilot had stated some misgivings about the flight and his competence (but not to the passenger). He seemed to be ‘rusty’ and unsure of procedures. If perhaps being a pilot was his full time profession, instead of a heating engineer, we might not be discussing this at all. We need more info to be sure a this time. But if someone told me they’d arranged a flight to get me to my new high profile job, I’d expect a full time professional pilot with a safe aircraft. Nothing less. I would not get into a plane with some part timer on a winter night.
No way.
Someone other than the pilot has some questions to answer here too.
TTmonkey said:
Dr Jekyl said:
The fact that the pilot was also a plumber is totally irrelevant.
Are you sure about that? Do you think the footballer knew that the pilot wasn’t a professional, full time pilot? From reports, the pilot had stated some misgivings about the flight and his competence (but not to the passenger). He seemed to be ‘rusty’ and unsure of procedures. If perhaps being a pilot was his full time profession, instead of a heating engineer, we might not be discussing this at all. We need more info to be sure a this time. But if someone told me they’d arranged a flight to get me to my new high profile job, I’d expect a full time professional pilot with a safe aircraft. Nothing less. I would not get into a plane with some part timer on a winter night.
No way.
Someone other than the pilot has some questions to answer here too.
Does this make Bruce unsuitable to fly a commercial airline, just because he is not a full time pilot??
This guy was obviously a plumber as a day job, and did some flying as second job/hobby.
As long as suitably qualified, I don't see the issue?
poo at Paul's said:
I see a bunch of muppets with more money than sense have donated near £300k to resume the search. Great, and then the poor buggers that die whilst the resources are out looking for these corpses can have a GoFundMe page set up to find their bodies etc. etc.
It's sad, but they made some bad choices and paid the price. Happens day in day out, to people who are not footballers and no one gives a hairy crap.
I can understand some families want to find the bodies, however I kind of think the 2 fishing boats out now searching are doing so for an easy income rather than believeing they will find a plane floating about in the channel. It's sad, but they made some bad choices and paid the price. Happens day in day out, to people who are not footballers and no one gives a hairy crap.
TTmonkey said:
Dr Jekyl said:
The fact that the pilot was also a plumber is totally irrelevant.
Are you sure about that? Do you think the footballer knew that the pilot wasn’t a professional, full time pilot? From reports, the pilot had stated some misgivings about the flight and his competence (but not to the passenger). He seemed to be ‘rusty’ and unsure of procedures. If perhaps being a pilot was his full time profession, instead of a heating engineer, we might not be discussing this at all. We need more info to be sure a this time. But if someone told me they’d arranged a flight to get me to my new high profile job, I’d expect a full time professional pilot with a safe aircraft. Nothing less. I would not get into a plane with some part timer on a winter night.
No way.
Someone other than the pilot has some questions to answer here too.
TTmonkey said:
Dr Jekyl said:
The fact that the pilot was also a plumber is totally irrelevant.
Are you sure about that? Do you think the footballer knew that the pilot wasn’t a professional, full time pilot? From reports, the pilot had stated some misgivings about the flight and his competence (but not to the passenger). He seemed to be ‘rusty’ and unsure of procedures. If perhaps being a pilot was his full time profession, instead of a heating engineer, we might not be discussing this at all. We need more info to be sure a this time. But if someone told me they’d arranged a flight to get me to my new high profile job, I’d expect a full time professional pilot with a safe aircraft. Nothing less. I would not get into a plane with some part timer on a winter night.
No way.
Someone other than the pilot has some questions to answer here too.
Contract Killer said:
TTmonkey said:
Dr Jekyl said:
The fact that the pilot was also a plumber is totally irrelevant.
Are you sure about that? Do you think the footballer knew that the pilot wasn’t a professional, full time pilot? From reports, the pilot had stated some misgivings about the flight and his competence (but not to the passenger). He seemed to be ‘rusty’ and unsure of procedures. If perhaps being a pilot was his full time profession, instead of a heating engineer, we might not be discussing this at all. We need more info to be sure a this time. But if someone told me they’d arranged a flight to get me to my new high profile job, I’d expect a full time professional pilot with a safe aircraft. Nothing less. I would not get into a plane with some part timer on a winter night.
No way.
Someone other than the pilot has some questions to answer here too.
Does this make Bruce unsuitable to fly a commercial airline, just because he is not a full time pilot??
This guy was obviously a plumber as a day job, and did some flying as second job/hobby.
As long as suitably qualified, I don't see the issue?
If it is true, to me it says he isn’t qualified in the same way as the likes of Bruce, who most definetly is.
TTmonkey said:
Contract Killer said:
TTmonkey said:
Dr Jekyl said:
The fact that the pilot was also a plumber is totally irrelevant.
Are you sure about that? Do you think the footballer knew that the pilot wasn’t a professional, full time pilot? From reports, the pilot had stated some misgivings about the flight and his competence (but not to the passenger). He seemed to be ‘rusty’ and unsure of procedures. If perhaps being a pilot was his full time profession, instead of a heating engineer, we might not be discussing this at all. We need more info to be sure a this time. But if someone told me they’d arranged a flight to get me to my new high profile job, I’d expect a full time professional pilot with a safe aircraft. Nothing less. I would not get into a plane with some part timer on a winter night.
No way.
Someone other than the pilot has some questions to answer here too.
Does this make Bruce unsuitable to fly a commercial airline, just because he is not a full time pilot??
This guy was obviously a plumber as a day job, and did some flying as second job/hobby.
As long as suitably qualified, I don't see the issue?
If it is true, to me it says he isn’t qualified in the same way as the likes of Bruce, who most definetly is.
TTmonkey said:
Contract Killer said:
TTmonkey said:
Dr Jekyl said:
The fact that the pilot was also a plumber is totally irrelevant.
Are you sure about that? Do you think the footballer knew that the pilot wasn’t a professional, full time pilot? From reports, the pilot had stated some misgivings about the flight and his competence (but not to the passenger). He seemed to be ‘rusty’ and unsure of procedures. If perhaps being a pilot was his full time profession, instead of a heating engineer, we might not be discussing this at all. We need more info to be sure a this time. But if someone told me they’d arranged a flight to get me to my new high profile job, I’d expect a full time professional pilot with a safe aircraft. Nothing less. I would not get into a plane with some part timer on a winter night.
No way.
Someone other than the pilot has some questions to answer here too.
Does this make Bruce unsuitable to fly a commercial airline, just because he is not a full time pilot??
This guy was obviously a plumber as a day job, and did some flying as second job/hobby.
As long as suitably qualified, I don't see the issue?
If it is true, to me it says he isn’t qualified in the same way as the likes of Bruce, who most definetly is.
TTmonkey said:
It’s been reported that the pilot wasn’t licensed to fly commercial flights involving paying passengers. Don’t know if this is accurate reporting or not.
If it is true, to me it says he isn’t qualified in the same way as the likes of Bruce, who most definetly is.
There is a grey area here. If a private pilot says 'I'm flying to Cardiff and you can come if you contribute to the cost' that's perfectly legal, the flight can even be advertised. If the passenger says 'I want to go to Cardiff for a meeting and if you fly me I'll contribute to the cost' then that isn't legal unless the pilot happens to be going to the same meeting, IE has 'common purpose'. But proving the nature of the flight and whether money handed over was just a contribution is difficult and there do seem to be a lot of pseudo air taxi flights operated by private pilots.If it is true, to me it says he isn’t qualified in the same way as the likes of Bruce, who most definetly is.
I agree that a private pilot without commercial qualification will usually be less knowledgeable and experienced than a commercial pilot and this could be a factor.
TTmonkey said:
It’s been reported that the pilot wasn’t licensed to fly commercial flights involving paying passengers. Don’t know if this is accurate reporting or not.
If it is true, to me it says he isn’t qualified in the same way as the likes of Bruce, who most definetly is.
Bruce is a professional pilot with an ATPL (airline transport pilots license) and instrument rating and type ratings on many aircraft.If it is true, to me it says he isn’t qualified in the same way as the likes of Bruce, who most definetly is.
Apparently the pilot in question had a ppl. (Private pilots license)
They’re in no way comparable.
I sat next to Bruce in a meteorology exam for our ATPLs years ago. He really stood out as we were all in our 20s and he was an older bloke wearing a suit.
I got chatting to him beforehand and asked him about the exam we were about to do and his flying (not knowing who he was) he told me he was “a musician” I asked him what he played and he said he was in a band. I asked him if that was “like a full time job” eventually I established that he was in iron maiden. Oh how we all laughed.
He’s the most unassuming bloke ever. I know a few people who worked with him in astreus in the 757 and they said he would fly a normal roster even doing some awful flight and then land and head off to Germany for a music video shoot. He never wanted any attention or special treatment.
Apparently when he pulled into stand down route the ground crew and random airport employees knew he was coming and would all come up to get his autograph. When he was at work, he just wanted to be a pilot and do his job though.
A couple of men in a plane go missing and a topic at PH reaches 8 pages and counting
A Dam in Brazil fails and there are many dead and hundreds missing https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
No posts to the above topic
Perhaps the majority of posters are more interested in football
A Dam in Brazil fails and there are many dead and hundreds missing https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
No posts to the above topic
Perhaps the majority of posters are more interested in football
Dr Jekyll said:
though apparently private not commercially qualified, was quite experienced so it seems unlikely there is some piece of knowledge that a commercial pilot would have swotted for their exams but he had somehow overlooked that would have avoided the accident.
On the contrary.....its precisely the fact that he was only a PPL without the relevant qualifications that meant he was risking a flight that a commercial pilot in a legal charter flight wouldn't have done,i.e a proper AOC commercial charter flight would not have been in a piston single at night at that altitude, it would have been in a turbine twin or jet up above the weather at a suitable altitude in commercial air routes.
Penelope Stopit said:
A couple of men in a plane go missing and a topic at PH reaches 8 pages and counting
A Dam in Brazil fails and there are many dead and hundreds missing https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
No posts to the above topic
Perhaps the majority of posters are more interested in football
8 die in Argentina with a 50% mortality rate and yet no posts about it at all...….A Dam in Brazil fails and there are many dead and hundreds missing https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
No posts to the above topic
Perhaps the majority of posters are more interested in football
People die all the time - the plane going missing is closer to home, is unsolved as to why and it more "interesting" to discuss. Nothing more sinister.
Apologies if you are remotely offended that PH have not expressed enough remote sympathy for Brazil. Probably because its not that interesting and people die all the time. Its life.
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