Ethiopian plane crash
Discussion
alangla said:
There's two Turkish ones inbound to Birmingham & Gatwick that are still on their way, would have thought the airline would have had them return to Istanbul by now, but no sign of them turning round.
The Turks are still coming. I expect they’ll have a few missed calls when they land. 
Munter said:
El stovey said:
I would happily. Airlines and aircrews all know about the problems now and have taken steps to mitigate against it. It’s not difficult to resolve in flight if you’re aware of it as everyone is now.
I think you might have jumped the gun there.If it's what people think it is, and if taking the actions people think they should take is actually possible. Then it might not be too difficult to resolve.
What if the damn thing just refuses to undo it's decision though? This 2nd set of pilots might have done exactly what we think is the right thing, but it made no difference.
We'll have to wait and find out. I'm happier they are on the ground until we know the sequence of events.
Turning off a stall protection device without being 100% certain it’s wrong is never going to be a robust procedure; not least because by the time you’ve ascertained the relevant information to make that call, MCAS has already slammed the stabiliser nose-down.
Ironically, I’m going off my gut feeling here, in the absence of more technical information, because there is insufficient information promulgated to Pilot’s about it in the first place. It’s a disgrace.
As someone said, it was introduced because of the reduced elevator authority on the MAX due to aerodynamics of a new, bigger engine. Why it (to my knowledge) operates in suicide mode based on one data source is beyond me. Surely a better solution would have been an alpha floor a-la-scarebus. That way if the system got it wrong and jumped the gun a bit, no harm-no foul.
Edited by Testaburger on Tuesday 12th March 14:10
Testaburger said:
Munter said:
El stovey said:
I would happily. Airlines and aircrews all know about the problems now and have taken steps to mitigate against it. It’s not difficult to resolve in flight if you’re aware of it as everyone is now.
I think you might have jumped the gun there.If it's what people think it is, and if taking the actions people think they should take is actually possible. Then it might not be too difficult to resolve.
What if the damn thing just refuses to undo it's decision though? This 2nd set of pilots might have done exactly what we think is the right thing, but it made no difference.
We'll have to wait and find out. I'm happier they are on the ground until we know the sequence of events.
Turning off a stall protection device without being 100% certain it’s wrong is never going to be a robust procedure; not least because by the time you’ve ascertained the relevant information to make that call, MCAS has already slammed the stabiliser nose-down.
Ironically, I’m going off my gut feeling here, in the absence of more technical information, because there is insufficient information promulgated to Pilot’s about it in the first place. It’s a disgrace.
As someone said, it was introduced because of the reduced elevator authority on the MAX due to aerodynamics of a new, bigger engine. Why it (to my knowledge) operates in suicide mode based on one data source is beyond me. Surely a better solution would have been an alpha floor a-la-scarebus. That way if the system got it wrong, no harm-no foul.
PRTVR said:
Well got to the departure gate only to be told it’s delayed, bringing in a different aircraft from Gatwick 2 hr delays not bad,
off topic but in the distance there is a aircraft totally white no markings , any ideas.
It could be a substitute aircraft which has been chartered by the airline to operate the flights which would have were scheduled on the MAX. off topic but in the distance there is a aircraft totally white no markings , any ideas.
El stovey said:
My friend flies a max. He was showing me the technical information and the procedures they have in place to mitigate against this issue. I’d be happy with it on his airline myself. Not sure what other operators were doing though.
Thanks for that. I’d be interested in knowing more about what those procedures are. Ultimately, disregarding unreliable airspeed indications because of a sketchy system is a sticky wicket to be on, which is my understanding of what’s been going on. That’s to say nothing of the time taken to diagnose the issue, which was the window for MCAS to reign hell...Here is the CAA directive
http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SD2019001.pdf
key para seems to be
2 Compliance/Action to be taken by operators and pilots
2.1 The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), in exercise of its powers under article 17(1) and 248 of the Air Navigation Order 2016, and subject to, and in accordance with, Regulation (EU) 2018/1139, Article 70, directs Pilots and Operators of any Boeing 737-8 “MAX” and Boeing 737-9 “MAX” aircraft which is registered in the United Kingdom or is registered in a third country, not to conduct any flights after 13:00 hrs on 12 March 2019, as follows:
a) Aircraft registered in the UK must not be flown anywhere.
b) Aircraft registered in a third country must not be flown in UK airspace.
http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SD2019001.pdf
key para seems to be
2 Compliance/Action to be taken by operators and pilots
2.1 The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), in exercise of its powers under article 17(1) and 248 of the Air Navigation Order 2016, and subject to, and in accordance with, Regulation (EU) 2018/1139, Article 70, directs Pilots and Operators of any Boeing 737-8 “MAX” and Boeing 737-9 “MAX” aircraft which is registered in the United Kingdom or is registered in a third country, not to conduct any flights after 13:00 hrs on 12 March 2019, as follows:
a) Aircraft registered in the UK must not be flown anywhere.
b) Aircraft registered in a third country must not be flown in UK airspace.
Stovey - so what are crews doing to get around the issue?
I understand that the Max series certification depends on a functioning MCAS system, otherwise the issue of the large engines causing stalls is unresolved. No MCAS, no certification, not allowed to fly. So just disabling it cannot be an option. so, what are crews actually doing to avoid any issues?
I understand that the Max series certification depends on a functioning MCAS system, otherwise the issue of the large engines causing stalls is unresolved. No MCAS, no certification, not allowed to fly. So just disabling it cannot be an option. so, what are crews actually doing to avoid any issues?
Turkish two have just done the airline equivalent of handbrake turns:
https://www.flightradar24.com/THY4TW/1fc6c589
https://www.flightradar24.com/THY3HN/1fc6c352
https://www.flightradar24.com/THY4TW/1fc6c589
https://www.flightradar24.com/THY3HN/1fc6c352
JPJPJP said:
If you go to filters on the right hand side of FR24, and run and aircraft type filter of "B3" (so it covers both current versions, but also will show Super King Air's) you will see all the 737 MAX's in the air.Ayahuasca said:
Stovey - so what are crews doing to get around the issue?
I understand that the Max series certification depends on a functioning MCAS system, otherwise the issue of the large engines causing stalls is unresolved. No MCAS, no certification, not allowed to fly. So just disabling it cannot be an option. so, what are crews actually doing to avoid any issues?
I believe that the initial response after Lion Air went down was to ensure the autotpilot is engaged - which flies in the face of what every pilot has been literally brainwashed with regarding how to handle an unreliable airspeed scenario - essentially it’s manual flight, pitch and power to a safe altitude, troubleshoot. I understand that the Max series certification depends on a functioning MCAS system, otherwise the issue of the large engines causing stalls is unresolved. No MCAS, no certification, not allowed to fly. So just disabling it cannot be an option. so, what are crews actually doing to avoid any issues?
Apologies if this has been covered but what does everyone make of the reports it was on fire before it came down? Possibly unreliable I know.
IMHO this is a training issue. The companies who have followed Boeing’s minimal guidance compared to companies like LOT et al who have taken the electronic remit from Boeing and come up with a fuller answer?
And another thing; to be a full member of Star Alliance like Ethiopian Airways; is that anything to do with extra safety systems etc? Or purely meet the minimums and a commercial deal?
IMHO this is a training issue. The companies who have followed Boeing’s minimal guidance compared to companies like LOT et al who have taken the electronic remit from Boeing and come up with a fuller answer?
And another thing; to be a full member of Star Alliance like Ethiopian Airways; is that anything to do with extra safety systems etc? Or purely meet the minimums and a commercial deal?
Ayahuasca said:
Stovey - so what are crews doing to get around the issue?
I understand that the Max series certification depends on a functioning MCAS system, otherwise the issue of the large engines causing stalls is unresolved. No MCAS, no certification, not allowed to fly. So just disabling it cannot be an option. so, what are crews actually doing to avoid any issues?
It’s not really open forum stuff unfortunately but never mind they’re grounded anyway. I understand that the Max series certification depends on a functioning MCAS system, otherwise the issue of the large engines causing stalls is unresolved. No MCAS, no certification, not allowed to fly. So just disabling it cannot be an option. so, what are crews actually doing to avoid any issues?
Norwegian has suspended 737 Max ops
https://media.en.norwegian.com/pressreleases/norwe...
Following the decision by the relevant aviation regulatory bodies to temporarily suspend operations of Boeing 737 MAX, Norwegian will not operate any flights with this aircraft type until further notice. We remain in close dialogue with the aviation authorities and Boeing, and follow their instructions and recommendations.
https://media.en.norwegian.com/pressreleases/norwe...
Following the decision by the relevant aviation regulatory bodies to temporarily suspend operations of Boeing 737 MAX, Norwegian will not operate any flights with this aircraft type until further notice. We remain in close dialogue with the aviation authorities and Boeing, and follow their instructions and recommendations.
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