The Tories aren’t working

[Esceptico]

So far no one has addressed the actual topic, which was how come the Tories are obsessed with inefficiency and waste in the public sector yet after decades in power have not solved the problem.

This reflects the tribal mentality on here. Questioning the Tories for many on here is like insulting their favourite football team or favourite car brand where logic, intelligence and impartiality go straight out of the window.

[Earthdweller]

Esceptico said:

So far no one has addressed the actual topic, which was how come the Tories are obsessed with inefficiency and waste in the public sector yet after decades in power have not solved the problem.

This reflects the tribal mentality on here. Questioning the Tories for many on here is like insulting their favourite football team or favourite car brand where logic, intelligence and impartiality go straight out of the window.

To be completely fair having spent three decades in the public sector it isn’t them that have caused the majority of the waste and inefficiency

[PHuzzy]

Esceptico said:

So far no one has addressed the actual topic, which was how come the Tories are obsessed with inefficiency and waste in the public sector yet after decades in power have not solved the problem.

This reflects the tribal mentality on here. Questioning the Tories for many on here is like insulting their favourite football team or favourite car brand where logic, intelligence and impartiality go straight out of the window.

Because the answer will upset a large number of people.
To make the public sector more efficient, an awful lot of dead wood needs removing and it's not exactly a vote/public winner to put a large percentage of people out of work.

So instead we're stuck with years of expensive pensions and inefficiency that I'm guessing they'll try and phase out over time with 'austerity' measures by not replacing them and cutting the crap.

Ideally you'd start from scratch and build it from the ground up to run more like a business but as soon as we mention privatisation the world goes nuts because they know it'll cost them more. That's the price of efficiency.

[Esceptico]

PHuzzy said:

Because the answer will upset a large number of people.
To make the public sector more efficient, an awful lot of dead wood needs removing and it's not exactly a vote/public winner to put a large percentage of people out of work.

So instead we're stuck with years of expensive pensions and inefficiency that I'm guessing they'll try and phase out over time with 'austerity' measures by not replacing them and cutting the crap.

Ideally you'd start from scratch and build it from the ground up to run more like a business but as soon as we mention privatisation the world goes nuts because they know it'll cost them more. That's the price of efficiency.

But if it’s more efficient it should cost us less, not more.

[PHuzzy]

Esceptico said:

PHuzzy said:

Because the answer will upset a large number of people.
To make the public sector more efficient, an awful lot of dead wood needs removing and it's not exactly a vote/public winner to put a large percentage of people out of work.

So instead we're stuck with years of expensive pensions and inefficiency that I'm guessing they'll try and phase out over time with 'austerity' measures by not replacing them and cutting the crap.

Ideally you'd start from scratch and build it from the ground up to run more like a business but as soon as we mention privatisation the world goes nuts because they know it'll cost them more. That's the price of efficiency.

But if it’s more efficient it should cost us less, not more.

In the long run, like for like it probably would do in operating costs but the initial investment would be ruinous.

How would you build something from scratch, whilst maintaining the current service without it costing a penny extra?

Same with newer and better equipment/drugs/training that reduce treatment time/increase efficiency.

It all costs money and no one is willing to pay for it.

[Red 4]

PHuzzy said:

Esceptico said:

So far no one has addressed the actual topic, which was how come the Tories are obsessed with inefficiency and waste in the public sector yet after decades in power have not solved the problem.

This reflects the tribal mentality on here. Questioning the Tories for many on here is like insulting their favourite football team or favourite car brand where logic, intelligence and impartiality go straight out of the window.

Because the answer will upset a large number of people.
To make the public sector more efficient, an awful lot of dead wood needs removing and it's not exactly a vote/public winner to put a large percentage of people out of work.

So instead we're stuck with years of expensive pensions and inefficiency that I'm guessing they'll try and phase out over time with 'austerity' measures by not replacing them and cutting the crap.

Ideally you'd start from scratch and build it from the ground up to run more like a business but as soon as we mention privatisation the world goes nuts because they know it'll cost them more. That's the price of efficiency.

The private sector have tried to take on public sector roles in many areas and it has indeed cost more.
How is that efficiency ?

The private sector have also failed miserably and embarrassingly on many occasions and needed the public sector to come to the rescue.
G4S and The Olympics for example.

"Private prisons" are another monumental disaster, etc etc etc.

Edited by Red 4 on Wednesday 22 January 19:54

[PHuzzy]

Red 4 said:

PHuzzy said:

Esceptico said:

So far no one has addressed the actual topic, which was how come the Tories are obsessed with inefficiency and waste in the public sector yet after decades in power have not solved the problem.

This reflects the tribal mentality on here. Questioning the Tories for many on here is like insulting their favourite football team or favourite car brand where logic, intelligence and impartiality go straight out of the window.

Because the answer will upset a large number of people.
To make the public sector more efficient, an awful lot of dead wood needs removing and it's not exactly a vote/public winner to put a large percentage of people out of work.

So instead we're stuck with years of expensive pensions and inefficiency that I'm guessing they'll try and phase out over time with 'austerity' measures by not replacing them and cutting the crap.

Ideally you'd start from scratch and build it from the ground up to run more like a business but as soon as we mention privatisation the world goes nuts because they know it'll cost them more. That's the price of efficiency.

The private sector have tried to take on public sector roles in many areas and it has indeed cost more.
How is that efficiency ?

The private sector have also failed miserably and embarrassingly on many occasions and needed the public sector to come to the rescue.
G4S and The Olympics for example.

"Private prisons" are another monumental disaster, etc etc etc.

Edited by Red 4 on Wednesday 22 January 19:54

Just like the public sector then? There seems to be a recurring theme here, doing it the same way, yields the exact same results.

Ground up redesign is what's needed but will never happen due to the cost.

Edited to add - what metrics are you using for this?

We have the most efficient healthcare system in the world. (2017 data, just double checked and no longer the case)
We don't have the best healthcare system in the world... which is more important?

Edited by PHuzzy on Wednesday 22 January 20:05

Edited by PHuzzy on Wednesday 22 January 20:10

[Halb]

Esceptico said:

Another Tory government and yet more posturing over the civil service and how it needs to be reformed. That has been the mantra since at least 1979 when Thatcher got into power (so 41 years ago). In that 41 years the Tories have been in power except for the interlude of Tory Lite New Labour...yet they still haven’t cracked it. How many more decades do they need? Or are they part of the problem, rather than the solution?

How could the government go about it?

[991_GT3]

Esceptico said:

So far no one has addressed the actual topic, which was how come the Tories are obsessed with inefficiency and waste in the public sector yet after decades in power have not solved the problem.

This reflects the tribal mentality on here. Questioning the Tories for many on here is like insulting their favourite football team or favourite car brand where logic, intelligence and impartiality go straight out of the window.

You seem to forget who was in power between 1997 and 2010 and what they ‘achieved’.

[Agammemnon]

Red 4 said:

The private sector have tried to take on public sector roles in many areas and it has indeed cost more.
How is that efficiency ?

British Rail
British Telecom
British Leyland

Compare when they were in the public sector with when they were in the private sector. I'm confident you won't see the efficiency improvements & higher standards but others will.

[98elise]

Esceptico said:

So far no one has addressed the actual topic, which was how come the Tories are obsessed with inefficiency and waste in the public sector yet after decades in power have not solved the problem.

This reflects the tribal mentality on here. Questioning the Tories for many on here is like insulting their favourite football team or favourite car brand where logic, intelligence and impartiality go straight out of the window.

Borrowing is certainly down. Labour were spending £4 for ever £3 taken in tax. Under the Tories we've actually seen a surplus at times.

Governments should only borrow in lean times.

[Esceptico]

Agammemnon said:

Red 4 said:

The private sector have tried to take on public sector roles in many areas and it has indeed cost more.
How is that efficiency ?

British Rail
British Telecom
British Leyland

Compare when they were in the public sector with when they were in the private sector. I'm confident you won't see the efficiency improvements & higher standards but others will.

Hardly the finest examples.

I’m old enough to remember BR but as an adult have mainly used the privatised services. BR must have been unimaginable bad if what we currently have is an improvement. I’ve travelled by train in quite a few countries and the only worse experience so far was India.

BL doesn’t even exist. Car production is more efficient it is just all owned and run by foreigners.

BT. Please don’t get me started on BT or my blood pressure will start to go off the charts. When we moved into a new build in the UK the fun and games I had with BT trying to get them to organise a telephone line with internet. Literally hours and hours wasted trying to find someone who could help (I had lots of chats with people in India who were unfailing polite but not able to do anything and forbidden from giving out UK telephone numbers).

[vaud]

BR was appalling.

BT at some points had a waiting list for phone numbers in towns, let alone the other services...

[Agammemnon]

Esceptico said:

BR must have been unimaginable bad if what we currently have is an improvement.

BL doesn’t even exist. Car production is more efficient it is just all owned and run by foreigners.

BT. Please don’t get me started on BT or my blood pressure will start to go off the charts. When we moved into a new build in the UK the fun and games I had with BT trying to get them to organise a telephone line with internet. Literally hours and hours wasted trying to find someone who could help (I had lots of chats with people in India who were unfailing polite but not able to do anything and forbidden from giving out UK telephone numbers).

1 It was
2 Foreign ownership isn't relevant- what is relevant is that when it was government run it was a shambles.
3 Believe me it was worse when it was under government control- there's plenty of examples such as waiting months to have a phone installed & tere basically being only 1 type of phone available (trimphone for extra cost but it didn't work any differently).

[Esceptico]

I’ve worked mainly in the private sector (senior management in some of the world’s biggest firms) and a short stint in the public sector. From my perspective all were shockingly inefficient.

In the private sector I couldn’t believe the divide between management and workers. The pay and benefit for the workers was controlled very tightly with management trying to get away with paying as little as possible. However, benefits and excesses for management were off the scale. It was very pleasant going to a management “meeting” at a five star hotel in St Moritz (family included) and I’m sure the morning spent working was productive enough to offset the day and half we had on the slopes...

On the other hand, in the public sector where I worked many employees were effectively unsackable and you had to rely on their sense of duty or goodwill to get anything done because if they wanted to do fk all there was not much we as management could do about it.

[Red 4]

Agammemnon said:

Red 4 said:

The private sector have tried to take on public sector roles in many areas and it has indeed cost more.
How is that efficiency ?

British Rail
British Telecom
British Leyland

Compare when they were in the public sector with when they were in the private sector. I'm confident you won't see the efficiency improvements & higher standards but others will.

Er, OK I will.

Northern Rail;
Calls for it to be renationalised because it is appalling.

British Telecom;
Great if you want to speak to someone in a call centre in Bangladesh who hasn't got a clue.

British Leyland;
I'll compare BL with JLR who have today announced 500 job losses at Halewood.

As usual, you offer a weak argument.

[Agammemnon]

Agammemnon said:

I'm confident you won't see the efficiency improvements & higher standards but others will.

[Earthdweller]

Red 4 said:

Er, OK I will.

Northern Rail;
Calls for it to be renationalised because it is appalling.
.

And that will make a difference how exactly?

Same trains, same staff, same management, same problems, sane lack of solutions

Or are you going to tell me they have a magic remedy ?

[Red 4]

Agammemnon said:

Agammemnon said:

I'm confident you won't see the efficiency improvements & higher standards but others will.

Oh right. Only you can see the improvements. Silly me.

[vaud]

Earthdweller said:

Red 4 said:

Er, OK I will.

Northern Rail;
Calls for it to be renationalised because it is appalling.
.

And that will make a difference how exactly?

Same trains, same staff, same management, same problems, sane lack of solutions

Or are you going to tell me they have a magic remedy ?

To be mildly fair to Northern Rail, some (I stress some) of their issues are down to delayed infrastructure which is 100% out of their hands.

Nationalising in this case is not a panacea.