Will China be brought to account?

[Gecko1978]

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

oyster said:

It wouldn't be PH without a xenophobic/racist theread near the top of the charts.

And there we have the real issue.
You aren’t allowed to discuss actual real reasons or solutions without some donkey shouting racism.

All we can do is get through this and be better prepared for the next time it happens.

Its not racist to say these wet markets are filthy, breeding grounds for bacteria and viruses, and that the Chinese have let them continue even after SARS. A nation that monitors its people like no other could have prevented this. But because it doesn't give a st thousands are dead and the world economy in tatters. Firms will fail people will loose their homes and likey kill themselves because one nation can't be arsed to exercise even basic animal hygiene.

So fk China i hope made in China becomes a lable to avoid.

[Jasandjules]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Indeed! but are you saying that they also eat stuff which is still alive?

Well he is correct.

[Europa1]

marksx said:

Nothing will happen. There will be a lot of bluster. Then in time it will just be back to 'well China's cheap' and it will be business as usual.

You think there will even be bluster?

[Exige77]

Jasandjules said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Indeed! but are you saying that they also eat stuff which is still alive?

Well he is correct.

It’s got nothing to do with eating stuff alive or dead, or raw or cooked.

The issue is “keeping” wild animals of many kinds, alive and dead together, often in very unhygienic conditions.

[PurpleTurtle]

Esceptico said:

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

oyster said:

It wouldn't be PH without a xenophobic/racist theread near the top of the charts.

And there we have the real issue.
You aren’t allowed to discuss actual real reasons or solutions without some donkey shouting racism.

All we can do is get through this and be better prepared for the next time it happens.

It is fine to criticise China and have an open debate about the causes of the pandemic and what needs to be done to limit of stop future outbreaks but you would have to pretty dim, completely insensitive or a racist yourself not to see the clearly xenophobic and racist intent of many posts on here.

For some on NP&E it is like Christmas come early that they can rant and rave about the Chinese, their “disgusting” food habits and the EU for doing too
much/doing too little. Whilst of course studiously avoiding any criticism of Trump or BoJo.

I’m a fully paid up Guardian reading Liberal who thinks Trump and BoJo are tosspots of the highest order, yet I think the blame for this lies firmly with China.

It’s not racist or right wing to say “I think this country has a problem with animals”

I was very much of that opinion when a colleague returned from China with a video of live toads for sale in the supermarket. Yummy. Their Bat and Pangolin Chow Mein is absolutely to die for. Quite literally, it seems.

[Esceptico]

PurpleTurtle said:

I’m a fully paid up Guardian reading Liberal who thinks Trump and BoJo are tosspots of the highest order, yet I think the blame for this lies firmly with China.

It’s not racist or right wing to say “I think this country has a problem with animals”

I was very much of that opinion when a colleague returned from China with a video of live toads for sale in the supermarket. Yummy. Their Bat and Pangolin Chow Mein is absolutely to die for. Quite literally, it seems.

As I’ve already noted, there is nothing wrong with valid criticism of China, its animal right’s issues, wet markets or its response to the crisis. However the way in which some posters are addressing this demonstrate obvious racist undertones.

[anonymous-user]

Esceptico said:

As I’ve already noted, there is nothing wrong with valid criticism of China, its animal right’s issues, wet markets or its response to the crisis.

So nice to have your blessing on what can be discussed.

Esceptico said:

However the way in which some posters are addressing this demonstrate obvious racist undertones.

So call out the posts that offend your sentiments. You referenced using the word disgusting earlier as an example which I did. Some Chinese standards, specifically wildlife and endangered animal trades are disgusting both hygienically and morally. Get over yourself.

[jakesmith]

jamoor said:

You forgot the slave trade, and the big one - The holocaust.

Do you not think Germany has made some attempts to unify Europe as amends for the Nazi era?

[cidered77]

PurpleTurtle said:

Esceptico said:

Dr Doofenshmirtz said:

oyster said:

It wouldn't be PH without a xenophobic/racist theread near the top of the charts.

And there we have the real issue.
You aren’t allowed to discuss actual real reasons or solutions without some donkey shouting racism.

All we can do is get through this and be better prepared for the next time it happens.

It is fine to criticise China and have an open debate about the causes of the pandemic and what needs to be done to limit of stop future outbreaks but you would have to pretty dim, completely insensitive or a racist yourself not to see the clearly xenophobic and racist intent of many posts on here.

For some on NP&E it is like Christmas come early that they can rant and rave about the Chinese, their “disgusting” food habits and the EU for doing too
much/doing too little. Whilst of course studiously avoiding any criticism of Trump or BoJo.

I’m a fully paid up Guardian reading Liberal who thinks Trump and BoJo are tosspots of the highest order, yet I think the blame for this lies firmly with China.

It’s not racist or right wing to say “I think this country has a problem with animals”

I was very much of that opinion when a colleague returned from China with a video of live toads for sale in the supermarket. Yummy. Their Bat and Pangolin Chow Mein is absolutely to die for. Quite literally, it seems.

Likewise -am also all of those things, and I also hold china and it's practices here fully responsible.

But sorry, is anyone actually saying calling China and its practices with wet markets is racist? They aren't, are they? Can i get an example then?

It's like the stock "political correctness gone mad" line from DM readers to all things race, whether nonsense or actual racism. Or "these days they'll get away with just a suspensed sentence" whenever anyone is arrested, whereas the data say we incarcerate more people than ever... a bit dull.

[Thundersports]

What what really worry me is Trumps reaction if it was found China had released it on purpose.

[jamoor]

Thundersports said:

What what really worry me is Trumps reaction if it was found China had released it on purpose.

More tarriffs? Sanctions?

Not much more he can do to harm the Chinese economy imo, if he does there will be a major polarisation of the world and everyone will have to pick sides.

Most developing countries will end up on the Chinese side and some countries like Italy will have a very tricky decision.

[cidered77]

Thundersports said:

What what really worry me is Trumps reaction if it was found China had released it on purpose.

Sorry - in what universe (except the Bond universe, i will reluctantly concede) would a nation that makes *so much money* to drive still global-leading growth numbers from the rest of world possibly want to do that? Even beyond the fact it is you know, quite evil, why would you possibly want to!?

I watched a video earlier of people in italy being awesome in quaranteen, and cheered myself up about the human race. And now i find myself back here again getting more depressed about it!

I'm off for a go on my simulator*





(*sim racing simulator mind, not euphamism for a tommy)

[anonymous-user]

cidered77 said:

Likewise -am also all of those things, and I also hold china and it's practices here fully responsible.

But sorry, is anyone actually saying calling China and its practices with wet markets is racist? They aren't, are they? Can i get an example then?

It's like the stock "political correctness gone mad" line from DM readers to all things race, whether nonsense or actual racism. Or "these days they'll get away with just a suspensed sentence" whenever anyone is arrested, whereas the data say we incarcerate more people than ever... a bit dull.

You're right, it is very dull.

Esceptico said:

As I’ve already noted, there is nothing wrong with valid criticism of China, its animal right’s issues, wet markets or its response to the crisis. However the way in which some posters are addressing this demonstrate obvious racist undertones.

[Jezza30]

I haven't read this thread so maybe I'm going over old ground.

I've worked fairly extensively in China and fundamentally how we see the world is completely different - and I don't know if or how that will change. While the west have become consumerist animals after a period of discovery we are now fat, dumb and happy (and greedy) wanting as much as we can have, as cheaply as possible, the Chinese of course were happy to provide, but fundamentally see things differently.

They fundamentally see the world still as a resource to take from. Animals - here for us to consume. Resources - us to consume. Territory - us to have. The powers that be in China will see the loss of life as a minor distraction, and the opportunities (turmoil), irresistible. I only hope that this will encourage more manufacturing back to the UK, a broader spread of skills (income streams) and not just banking and services. Not inward looking, but a more robust economy less reliant on fragile and volatile markets. Not insular, just more diverse in income.

Working in London property now, the flirting with China over the last 10 years has made me feel sick. Why bother building an attractive, quality product that is desirable to UK buyers (or at least owner occupiers) when everyone can just build rabbit hutches, high and small then and rush over the China and sell over a weekend (land owners and builders equally to blame). Easy peasy and the payments on my Range Rover and the Mrs Audi are sorted... We're as much to blame as they are...

Me - this week bought a Henry hoover, new washing machine from Ebac and a tv from Cello.... oh and have bought everything I need from the corner shop which has plenty of stock while the idiots fight over nothing in Waitrose 300yrds down the road. Stupid maybe, but we need to keep the lights on and paying this back somehow. (oh and a healthy SDLT bill too)

[wisbech]

cidered77 said:

they are very different to EU in that they don't have politics. So providing they prevent a mass uprising, this lot would have no issue in stopping a particular way of life/industry if it helped their long term planning.

Makes them more effective at things like lockdown, and saying "wet markets stop now", than EU. if they see the link, they can i think will just do it.

China is very political. The difference to the West is all the politics is within one party, between different factions/ groups in that party (sort of like Remainers v Leavers in the Conservative party). Oh, and the stakes are higher. Lose in UK politics, you get a seat in the Lords, maybe write your memoirs. Lose in Chinese politics, if you are lucky you get house arrest for the rest of your life. It is a blood sport, with much higher stakes (risks and rewards) vs the UK.

[anonymous-user]

ash73 said:

This makes interesting reading:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chi...

...Wuhan virologist Shi Zhengli claims to have found dozens of SARS-like coronaviruses in bat caves.

Wow. Scary. Although the cost of "hundreds of billions" is hopelessly optimistic. We're at about $20 trillion globally right now and that's just listed equities!

[otherman]

ash73 said:

From that same publication, this is concerning:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/30...

Boris might need to re-plan...

He does need to re-plan, and we've known those figures for ages. Sars had higher mortality, but only 0.9 infection rate. C-19 has 3.5 infection rate, that's the problem with it. It's so hard to contain. Absolute lockdown for two weeks does it, but so far, only authoritian regimes have been able to do that.
We have to contend with the 'bulldog spirit' people who still go out and mix, and in a climate of political correctness.

[otherman]

ash73 said:

I think they need to implement a global lockdown for 3 weeks, but I can't see how they can do that here; everyone from the top down thinks they are the exception.

Attitudes may change when the death toll rises I guess, what's happening in Italy is shocking a few people.

Two weeks would do it, but you're right. If only we had a world government, it would be done by now.

[jamoor]

otherman said:

Two weeks would do it, but you're right. If only we had a world government, it would be done by now.

From what I can see international diplomacy and cooperation has gone out the window, it’s every country for themselves.

Much like people who visit the supermarkets .

[RDMcG]

ash73 said:

Perhaps you could do it country by country if you grounded all flights and quarantined all ships.

The first country that does it could dominate the global economy for the next 10 years.

On a similar point, I wonder if China will hold the world to ransom if they are the first with a vaccine...

the opposite

Like the Marshal Plan the best move for the victor is to be magnanimous...they will give it away.