Statues and our tolerance of history
Discussion
mx5nut said:
First they said they didn't object to the statue's removal, they just resented the idea of it being torn down by a mob.
Now councils are deciding to take them down, they don't like that either. They think we should all vote on whether we want to celebrate slave traders first, apparently.
Should we vote on every decision our local councils take from now on? Or will it be strictly for statues?
We have elections for councils so I guess we should embrace every decision they make...or not. As far as I’m concerned statues are part of our history be it good or bad. Ignore it at your peril. Now councils are deciding to take them down, they don't like that either. They think we should all vote on whether we want to celebrate slave traders first, apparently.
Should we vote on every decision our local councils take from now on? Or will it be strictly for statues?
saaby93 said:
The trouble is much of this stuff is interelated.
So? saaby93 said:
If I have it right the slave trade itself was run in the host countries by money making compatriots of the slaves.
Yes. So? No one forced the Royal African Company (and others) to buy slaves just because they were for sale. And the sellers were happy to increase the 'supply' to fill the demand driven by Europeans' demand for cheap sugar and cotton.saaby93 said:
Being a slave wasnt all bad if you landed in a decent household
"Slavery wasn't all that bad..." Really? saaby93 said:
If it wasnt for the slave trade would there have been the ethnic mix in the USA or Bristol?
Probably not the same ethnic mix. But so what? There are much better ways of telling that story than a statue of a slave trader with an inscription that makes no mention of the trade or the people subjected to it.saaby93 said:
If there was no slave trade would there have been a Colston statue - didnt he make much of his wealth from other means?
His wealth came from the Royal African Company (a slave trading firm) and investments/trades in companies and commodities using slave labour. Some came from investments in Bristol, which given the time period almost certainly had slavery in their 'business model' somewhere. saaby93 said:
How many of us wouldnt be here but due to a quirk of history?
Would the internet exist or PH?
Irrelevant. I know I wouldn't be here if my paternal grandparents hadn't met while my grandfather was in Liverpool on naval service during the war. Doesn't mean I have to be grateful to the Nazis for it or have a statue of Donitz in my garden. Would the internet exist or PH?
saaby93 said:
It's not as straightforward as it looks.
It really is in this case. saaby93 said:
Doesnt any statue need a bigger story?
Probably. That's a good thing for all concerned. mx5nut said:
First they said they didn't object to the statue's removal, they just resented the idea of it being torn down by a mob.
Now councils are deciding to take them down, they don't like that either. They think we should all vote on whether we want to celebrate slave traders first, apparently.
Should we vote on every decision our local councils take from now on? Or will it be strictly for statues?
With the increase in technology then it would actually seem feasible to open up council voting committees to the public. Now councils are deciding to take them down, they don't like that either. They think we should all vote on whether we want to celebrate slave traders first, apparently.
Should we vote on every decision our local councils take from now on? Or will it be strictly for statues?
Council executive committees only meet once a month so it won’t exactly be onerous. Although maybe full council meetings might be a more appropriate start.
I think you’ve actually accidentally come up with a fantastic idea.
Flumpo said:
With the increase in technology then it would actually seem feasible to open up council voting committees to the public.
Council executive committees only meet once a month so it won’t exactly be onerous. Although maybe full council meetings might be a more appropriate start.
I think you’ve actually accidentally come up with a fantastic idea.
Never happen. Allowing the electorate to have a say in the day to day running that directly affects their lives. Are you mad??Council executive committees only meet once a month so it won’t exactly be onerous. Although maybe full council meetings might be a more appropriate start.
I think you’ve actually accidentally come up with a fantastic idea.
Don't forget the press gangs for the Royal Navy too.
Along with the 18th century Ironmasters paying their men with tokens that could only be spent in the company shop.
5 year old children working in the cotton mills.
The match girls phossy jaw.
All contributed to the wealth of Britain over the years.
Along with the 18th century Ironmasters paying their men with tokens that could only be spent in the company shop.
5 year old children working in the cotton mills.
The match girls phossy jaw.
All contributed to the wealth of Britain over the years.
Electro1980 said:
saaby93 said:
Being a slave wasnt all bad if you landed in a decent household
What the f
k? Are you actually saying “well, some people who owned others as property treated them ok so it’s not all bad.”? I can’t believe someone would actually say that.mx5nut said:
Smollet said:
As far as I’m concerned statues are part of our history be it good or bad. Ignore it at your peril.
Again, you're thinking of museums, where these statues will find new homes.Vanden Saab said:
mx5nut said:
Smollet said:
As far as I’m concerned statues are part of our history be it good or bad. Ignore it at your peril.
Again, you're thinking of museums, where these statues will find new homes.saaby93 said:
If I have it right the slave trade itself was run in the host countries by money making compatriots of the slaves.
Yes. So? No one forced the Royal African Company (and others) to buy slaves just because they were for sale. And the sellers were happy to increase the 'supply' to fill the demand driven by Europeans' demand for cheap sugar and cotton.Not quite, there remained a local market for slaves and not all slaves were sent across teh atlantic, but don't stop facts getting in your way
saaby93 said:
Being a slave wasnt all bad if you landed in a decent household
"Slavery wasn't all that bad..." Really? There was no "wasn't bad" if you were not sold to European slave traders, you might be a local slave and die or just be killed, both common.
saaby93 said:
If it wasnt for the slave trade would there have been the ethnic mix in the USA or Bristol?
Probably not the same ethnic mix. But so what? There are much better ways of telling that story than a statue of a slave trader with an inscription that makes no mention of the trade or the people subjected to it.The statue was not raised because he was a slave trader.
saaby93 said:
If there was no slave trade would there have been a Colston statue - didnt he make much of his wealth from other means?
His wealth came from the Royal African Company (a slave trading firm) and investments/trades in companies and commodities using slave labour. Some came from investments in Bristol, which given the time period almost certainly had slavery in their 'business model' somewhere. Again why just lie, prove these facts and also highlight that the UK was not the only country conducting this act, slaving was not a UK operation, the UK inf act spent 60 years on station trying to stop further trade.
saaby93 said:
How many of us wouldnt be here but due to a quirk of history?
Would the internet exist or PH?
Irrelevant. I know I wouldn't be here if my paternal grandparents hadn't met while my grandfather was in Liverpool on naval service during the war. Doesn't mean I have to be grateful to the Nazis for it or have a statue of Donitz in my garden. Would the internet exist or PH?
No but you should be thankful of the slave trade which allowed Liverpool to flourish
Vanden Saab said:
Why do you want all those who are offended by the statues to be denied the pleasure of going to a museum?
I can only assume comments like this come from people deliberately misrepresenting the issue or putting zero effort into understanding it.People aren't offended by the statue as a literal object, like vampires and garlic. For Pete's sake!
Their problem is having it in a prominent place in the city with a misleading description bereft of any other context. A museum is where people campaigning for the statue to be removed wanted it to end up.
This is only a small step away from 'taking the statue down was racist because it was black in colour' in the Failing To Get The Point stakes.
2xChevrons said:
Vanden Saab said:
Why do you want all those who are offended by the statues to be denied the pleasure of going to a museum?
I can only assume comments like this come from people deliberately misrepresenting the issue or putting zero effort into understanding it.People aren't offended by the statue as a literal object, like vampires and garlic. For Pete's sake!
Their problem is having it in a prominent place in the city with a misleading description bereft of any other context. A museum is where people campaigning for the statue to be removed wanted it to end up.
This is only a small step away from 'taking the statue down was racist because it was black in colour' in the Failing To Get The Point stakes.
You cannot have it both ways....
So if we rewrite history and pretend no-one ever did anything nasty to anyone ever including in no particular order
vikings
Romans
Greeks
Persians
Ottomans
Prussians
Norman’s
Conquistadors
Russians
mongols
Japanese
Chinese
British
Etc
Etc
Etc
... then the world will be better place and every white black Asian African Polynesian Indonesian Eskimo Arapaho Mexican etc etc etc will cease being a prick. and never stab rape kill deal drugs steal loot vandalise invade their neighbours ever ever again because deleting some of the more unsavoury pieces of history is clearly a solution to the all the worlds problems.
The logic is faultless.
vikings
Romans
Greeks
Persians
Ottomans
Prussians
Norman’s
Conquistadors
Russians
mongols
Japanese
Chinese
British
Etc
Etc
Etc
... then the world will be better place and every white black Asian African Polynesian Indonesian Eskimo Arapaho Mexican etc etc etc will cease being a prick. and never stab rape kill deal drugs steal loot vandalise invade their neighbours ever ever again because deleting some of the more unsavoury pieces of history is clearly a solution to the all the worlds problems.
The logic is faultless.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff