First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics
Discussion
chrispmartha said:
Read what I wrote.
He can think and have an opinion on whatever he likes.
He can think and have an opinion on whatever he likes.
chrispmartha said:
You may well be correct that if a transwoman wins a gold medal women in sports would be totally against it, that’s for them to decide and for the sports authorities though not a man on a car forum.
So I'll ask again. Is it only for the victims of injustice to question the injustice? Jules Sunley said:
Simple solution on Olympic application paperwork - 'Were you born with dangly bits' - Yes equals male competitor, No equals female competitor. Don't care what you have or haven't got now or what you 'identify as'.
Not that simple of a solution though.What about someone like Caster Semenya?
Jinx said:
chrispmartha said:
Read what I wrote.
He can think and have an opinion on whatever he likes.
He can think and have an opinion on whatever he likes.
chrispmartha said:
You may well be correct that if a transwoman wins a gold medal women in sports would be totally against it, that’s for them to decide and for the sports authorities though not a man on a car forum.
So I'll ask again. Is it only for the victims of injustice to question the injustice? Question or have an opinion on whatever you like.
chrispmartha said:
No, again, read what I wrote.
Question or have an opinion on whatever you like.
Question or have an opinion on whatever you like.
chrispmartha said:
that’s for them to decide and for the sports authorities though not a man on a car forum.
(my bold)If it was a woman (trans or cis) on a car forum then you would be as dismissive of their opinion on this matter as you appear to be for a man (trans or cis)?
Jules Sunley said:
Simple solution on Olympic application paperwork - 'Were you born with dangly bits' - Yes equals male competitor, No equals female competitor. Don't care what you have or haven't got now or what you 'identify as'.
Define "dangly bits". 1-2% of babies are born with some kind of intersex condition. There's also such a thing as an "XX male".Neither sex nor gender are binary.
Jinx said:
chrispmartha said:
No, again, read what I wrote.
Question or have an opinion on whatever you like.
Question or have an opinion on whatever you like.
chrispmartha said:
that’s for them to decide and for the sports authorities though not a man on a car forum.
(my bold)If it was a woman (trans or cis) on a car forum then you would be as dismissive of their opinion on this matter as you appear to be for a man (trans or cis)?
And also you’ve stripped the quote out of its context, pointless discussing it if that’s what you are going to do.
The interchangeable use of "sex" and "gender" becomes problematic when the segregation of sport is nothing to do with the latter and entirely down to the former.
I think that transwomen choosing to compete in elite sport are not doing the cause of the acceptance of trans people any favours. It seems monumentally selfish.
I think that transwomen choosing to compete in elite sport are not doing the cause of the acceptance of trans people any favours. It seems monumentally selfish.
chrispmartha said:
You said female sports being dominated by trans women, all I’m saying is that is a very very long way off happening and id suggest it will never happen.
You may well be correct that if a transwoman wins a gold medal women in sports would be totally against it, that’s for them to decide and for the sports authorities though not a man on a car forum.
Where did I say I was deciding what the opinion of women or female athletes should be? I just suggested what they may think(not would or do think), this is based off several interviews I have heard where female athletes have voiced their anxiety about trans women competing against them and my perception of injustice and fair competition.You may well be correct that if a transwoman wins a gold medal women in sports would be totally against it, that’s for them to decide and for the sports authorities though not a man on a car forum.
I imagine many share the same sentiment as me when I say I feel absoutely no animosity towards any person for whatever gender they wish to identify as or how they live their lives, I just believe sport is very, very different from other aspects of life, its not anti-trans to believe this, its just respect for fair competition in sport and for the women who have dedicated decades to becoming elite competitors.
NickCQ said:
Jules Sunley said:
Simple solution on Olympic application paperwork - 'Were you born with dangly bits' - Yes equals male competitor, No equals female competitor. Don't care what you have or haven't got now or what you 'identify as'.
Define "dangly bits". 1-2% of babies are born with some kind of intersex condition. There's also such a thing as an "XX male".Neither sex nor gender are binary.
Sex is 100% binary. Gender is irrelevant and meaningless in reality. Unless you have a tendency for blue hair.
Rick1.8t said:
chrispmartha said:
You said female sports being dominated by trans women, all I’m saying is that is a very very long way off happening and id suggest it will never happen.
You may well be correct that if a transwoman wins a gold medal women in sports would be totally against it, that’s for them to decide and for the sports authorities though not a man on a car forum.
Where did I say I was deciding what the opinion of women or female athletes should be? I just suggested what they may think(not would or do think), this is based off several interviews I have heard where female athletes have voiced their anxiety about trans women competing against them and my perception of injustice and fair competition.You may well be correct that if a transwoman wins a gold medal women in sports would be totally against it, that’s for them to decide and for the sports authorities though not a man on a car forum.
I imagine many share the same sentiment as me when I say I feel absoutely no animosity towards any person for whatever gender they wish to identify as or how they live their lives, I just believe sport is very, very different from other aspects of life, its not anti-trans to believe this, its just respect for fair competition in sport and for the women who have dedicated decades to becoming elite competitors.
Iwantafusca said:
DSD (disorders of sex development)affected people are still either male or female. Sex is 100% binary.
There is nuance - DSDs have historically been "corrected" or "assigned" as one or the other, but I don't see how you can say it's 100% obvious what sex someone is if they have ambiguous dangly bits and/or chromosomes that don't match the dangly bits.chrispmartha said:
It does mention gender reassignment
“ A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.”
Im using gender as in the term that is used here
https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certif...
Gender reassignment is protected, gender isn’t.“ A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.”
Im using gender as in the term that is used here
https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certif...
It means that you can’t discriminate against someone who’s undergone or us undergoing a proper gender reassignment program of drugs and surgery.
This protection was included when it was thought to apply to a handful of people who had medically transitioned; it says nothing about “gender identity” or about gender itself being a protected characteristic.
As we’ve seen in the news recently, Stonewall and others have been trying their best to pretend that the act protects gender, and doesn’t protect sex, but they’ve been caught out in their lies.
ZedLeg said:
It's picking and choosing from available science to make something up that supports the bigotry. The same way that scientific principles in the past have been twisted to support racism, homophobia and misogyny.
It is not bigotry to say that humans are either male or female and that trans women are male.That’s the whole point, they are men choosing to live as women to deal with a psychological issue, gender dysphoria.
Northernboy said:
chrispmartha said:
It does mention gender reassignment
“ A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.”
Im using gender as in the term that is used here
https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certif...
Gender reassignment is protected, gender isn’t.“ A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.”
Im using gender as in the term that is used here
https://www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certif...
It means that you can’t discriminate against someone who’s undergone or us undergoing a proper gender reassignment program of drugs and surgery.
This protection was included when it was thought to apply to a handful of people who had medically transitioned; it says nothing about “gender identity” or about gender itself being a protected characteristic.
As we’ve seen in the news recently, Stonewall and others have been trying their best to pretend that the act protects gender, and doesn’t protect sex, but they’ve been caught out in their lies.
I don’t believe you have to have surgery to be classed has someone who has gone through gender reassignment?
Having a female section in sport is a form of segregation which allows a section of society to compete against only others in that group. This is normally seen as a ‘good thing’, and females gain gold medals which are seen as the equivalent of gold medals awarded to males.
I can compete in events such as boxing and weightlifting where there is further segregation, and this is seen as a good thing. A gold in fly is seen as the equivalent of a gold in heavy.
If the way a group is segregated means that some gain an unfair advantage, then the classification is at fault but only if the sole reason for the segregation is to be fair. But, it appears, it is not.
Many people are excluded from competing in a particular Olympic sport because of their physical characteristics. Some will be able to opt for para-olympics, but others will not. I might want to compete in the 100 metres. I might not be able to because I’m 5 feet tall. Greater stride length is a distinct advantage.
The simple fair solution is a further group, but, because fairness is not the main motivator in this particular case, the IOC is strangled by a twist of its own logic. Any solution is illogical and goes against someone’s principles. In other words, there’s no possible answer that is fair.
I can compete in events such as boxing and weightlifting where there is further segregation, and this is seen as a good thing. A gold in fly is seen as the equivalent of a gold in heavy.
If the way a group is segregated means that some gain an unfair advantage, then the classification is at fault but only if the sole reason for the segregation is to be fair. But, it appears, it is not.
Many people are excluded from competing in a particular Olympic sport because of their physical characteristics. Some will be able to opt for para-olympics, but others will not. I might want to compete in the 100 metres. I might not be able to because I’m 5 feet tall. Greater stride length is a distinct advantage.
The simple fair solution is a further group, but, because fairness is not the main motivator in this particular case, the IOC is strangled by a twist of its own logic. Any solution is illogical and goes against someone’s principles. In other words, there’s no possible answer that is fair.
chrispmartha said:
Not that simple of a solution though.
What about someone like Caster Semenya?
She was apparently brought up as a male, had a male puberty, and has testicles.What about someone like Caster Semenya?
She has a condition that caused ambiguous secondary sexual characteristics, but that’s not the determining factor here.
Have a look at this interview where she talks about her childhood;
https://youtu.be/Hvg50P4FwTk
There’s speculation that she’s married a woman and fathered (biologically) a child.
Of course, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with Trans, she’s not trans, she is a person with a DSD.
Northernboy said:
Newc said:
Haven't got time today to pitch in on every post but just wanted to say you are bang on with everything you have said.
Thanks.I do feel quite strongly about this. A lot of women are getting very badly treated, and not much is being done about it.
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