Teacher fired for not using preferred pronouns!

[dundarach]

otolith said:

I find that a rather strange position. We expect police officers to be polite and respectful. We expect the same from doctors, tax inspectors, ticket inspectors, doormen, receptionists. Even setting aside any idea that it's appropriate to default to treating anyone disrespectfully if they don't have a choice about being there, this is a further education college, not a Borstal.

Based on statistic alone, technically I taught the lowest academic children in England one year.

Many of the children were only allowed in for my lesson and then had to go home

Regardless, I was always polite and respectful, they were the most successful tools I had!

[272BHP]

QJumper said:

272BHP said:

Politeness is a privilege, not a right.

Not really. One can deserve the rudeness of others but, until rudeness is warranted, then politeness should be the default.

Respect is a reflection of the person that's respected, but politeness is a reflection of the person being polite.

A classroom is different. A teacher is in a position of authority.

Give the little ****** an inch and they will take a mile

[gregs656]

272BHP said:

A classroom is different. A teacher is in a position of authority.

Give the little ****** an inch and they will take a mile

Authority is not a stick to beat people with. Good authority and leadership is the opposite to what you describe.

[272BHP]

gregs656 said:

272BHP said:

A classroom is different. A teacher is in a position of authority.

Give the little ****** an inch and they will take a mile

Authority is not a stick to beat people with. Good authority and leadership is the opposite to what you describe.

Just because I do not think it is necessary for a teacher to be polite does not mean I think they should be rude by default. A manner that is clear, direct, curt and authoritative is a very effective strategy in maintaining focus and control in a classroom environment.

Let teachers teach in a style that suits them.

[bitchstewie]

This man wasn't "clear, direct, curt and authoritative" he was unnecessarily rude and offensive taken at face value.

Honestly the st some of you will defend.

[272BHP]

bhstewie said:

This man wasn't "clear, direct, curt and authoritative" he was unnecessarily rude and offensive taken at face value.

Honestly the st some of you will defend.

I was not referring to that particular teacher.

Just on this weird expectation of teachers to be polite to pupils at all times.

[Patrick Bateman]

J4CKO said:

bhstewie said:

J4CKO said:

bhstewie said:

I always find it odd that when faced between simply being decent and polite to someone who's probably not having the easiest of times and who would appreciate a little support or being completely and deliberately obnoxious to them on purpose how many people will try to defend someone taking the being completely and deliberately obnoxious to them on purpose approach.

Yeah, this.

I know some get all frothy about pronouns, and sometimes it seems a little too complicated and can be quite militant in its application but this just seems like a young girl who, going forward wants to be known as male.

Its not hard, and its not like he misgendered him by mistake after being used to referring to him as her, he deliberately made a fuss about saying he wouldn't, strange hill to die on.

Then, as straight, white, males in middle age, you then get painted as the enemy and that you dont understand, and hate trans people. Thing is, its not a new thing, its just that trans people now have a voice that they didnt have, but like this guy, sometimes some get it a bit wrong or go a bit over the top and those are the ones you hear about most. Can see why some trans folk get a bit defensive to be fair after all those years of taking st and having the piss taken.

Someone transitioned where I work some years back.

Without wanting to sound too rude if you didn't know any better it was almost a case of someone who looked male and who you called John on Friday walked into the office on Monday morning looking the same but with slightly longer hair and wearing lipstick asking to be called Jane.

From that point onwards John was Jane and he was she.

I wouldn't even have dreamed of calling her John or he past that point because frankly whatever the law or HR might have had to say about it it would have been a dick move to do so having been explicitly asked not to.

You don't need to agree with something or understand it to not be a dick about it.

Yeah, absolutely, saw this at Greater Manchester Police, an officer who had retired from the Police to work as a civilian in IT transitioned, and whilst he was off, ready to come back as she the GMP Lesbian and Gay association arranged a meeting of all IT staff where they went through the reasons, gender dysphoria etc and how to interact with him when she came back which was really useful, interesting and helpful.

It is what it is, and as you say, why be a dick about it ? Nobody does that lightly, its a big, big step and I cant begin to imagine how hard it must be.

My wife works in a school, and there are kids who want to be known by a different pronoun, and apparently the other kids are by and large brilliant about it.

In these scenarios would you expect women to accept a trans woman in female-only spaces? i.e. toilets and changing rooms. Or does that constitute being a dick in your view?

[XCP]

I would expect, and indeed know that we did, accept a trans man in our men only spaces. He was a respected colleague and treated as such.

Why expect any different?

[Catweazle]

chrispmartha said:

Rufus Stone said:

biggles330d said:

Would never have happened in my day. Everyone was: Hey, You, Child. Completely gender neutral. lol

We were referred to just by our surname at my school.

A lot of my teachers called me by my nickname :-)

I don't think a teacher calling a child 'dhead' would be acceptable nowadays.

[Boringvolvodriver]

Catweazle said:

chrispmartha said:

Rufus Stone said:

biggles330d said:

Would never have happened in my day. Everyone was: Hey, You, Child. Completely gender neutral. lol

We were referred to just by our surname at my school.

A lot of my teachers called me by my nickname :-)

I don't think a teacher calling a child 'dhead' would be acceptable nowadays.

Unless they were called Richard Head of course!!

[Not-The-Messiah]

This place as turned into Mumsnet.

[jdw100]

otolith said:

It's not a school, it's a further education college. They don't do that.

https://www.newcollege.ac.uk/

In any case, kids now apparently don't generally use the showers - and the policy for the last 25 years has been to build cubicles rather than the communal facilities my generation was forced to use.

Prompted me to ask my daughter about post- swimming showering at school.

Never thought about it.

Turns out the facilities are such you can use a cubicle or shower with friends. She likes to shower with her friends, she says.

They are 6-7 age group.

Same facilities used by all kids after relevant swimming classes up to age 18.

So I guess some still use communal part.

Different country and all that.

Edited by jdw100 on Friday 22 March 03:34

[Patrick Bateman]

XCP said:

I would expect, and indeed know that we did, accept a trans man in our men only spaces. He was a respected colleague and treated as such.

Why expect any different?

I said trans woman and female only spaces.

Females aren't a potential threat to males in the way males are to females.

[otolith]

Patrick Bateman said:

XCP said:

I would expect, and indeed know that we did, accept a trans man in our men only spaces. He was a respected colleague and treated as such.

Why expect any different?

I said trans woman and female only spaces.

Females aren't a potential threat to males in the way males are to females.

Why bring it up on this thread then, when this case is a trans man?

[Patrick Bateman]

otolith said:

Why bring it up on this thread then, when this case is a trans man?

I was responding to comments relating to trans women.

Edited by Patrick Bateman on Friday 22 March 11:23

[BikeBikeBIke]

jdw100 said:

otolith said:

It's not a school, it's a further education college. They don't do that.

https://www.newcollege.ac.uk/

In any case, kids now apparently don't generally use the showers - and the policy for the last 25 years has been to build cubicles rather than the communal facilities my generation was forced to use.

Prompted me to ask my daughter about post- swimming showering at school.

Never thought about it.

Turns out the facilities are such you can use a cubicle or shower with friends. She likes to shower with her friends, she says.

They are 6-7 age group.

Same facilities used by all kids after relevant swimming classes up to age 18.

So I guess some still use communal part.

Different country and all that.

FWIW my daughter doesn't shower after PE and she says none of the other girls do. IMHO that's minging.

I guess their generation just identify as 'not stinking'.

[J4CKO]

Patrick Bateman said:

J4CKO said:

bhstewie said:

J4CKO said:

bhstewie said:

I always find it odd that when faced between simply being decent and polite to someone who's probably not having the easiest of times and who would appreciate a little support or being completely and deliberately obnoxious to them on purpose how many people will try to defend someone taking the being completely and deliberately obnoxious to them on purpose approach.

Yeah, this.

I know some get all frothy about pronouns, and sometimes it seems a little too complicated and can be quite militant in its application but this just seems like a young girl who, going forward wants to be known as male.

Its not hard, and its not like he misgendered him by mistake after being used to referring to him as her, he deliberately made a fuss about saying he wouldn't, strange hill to die on.

Then, as straight, white, males in middle age, you then get painted as the enemy and that you dont understand, and hate trans people. Thing is, its not a new thing, its just that trans people now have a voice that they didnt have, but like this guy, sometimes some get it a bit wrong or go a bit over the top and those are the ones you hear about most. Can see why some trans folk get a bit defensive to be fair after all those years of taking st and having the piss taken.

Someone transitioned where I work some years back.

Without wanting to sound too rude if you didn't know any better it was almost a case of someone who looked male and who you called John on Friday walked into the office on Monday morning looking the same but with slightly longer hair and wearing lipstick asking to be called Jane.

From that point onwards John was Jane and he was she.

I wouldn't even have dreamed of calling her John or he past that point because frankly whatever the law or HR might have had to say about it it would have been a dick move to do so having been explicitly asked not to.

You don't need to agree with something or understand it to not be a dick about it.

Yeah, absolutely, saw this at Greater Manchester Police, an officer who had retired from the Police to work as a civilian in IT transitioned, and whilst he was off, ready to come back as she the GMP Lesbian and Gay association arranged a meeting of all IT staff where they went through the reasons, gender dysphoria etc and how to interact with him when she came back which was really useful, interesting and helpful.

It is what it is, and as you say, why be a dick about it ? Nobody does that lightly, its a big, big step and I cant begin to imagine how hard it must be.

My wife works in a school, and there are kids who want to be known by a different pronoun, and apparently the other kids are by and large brilliant about it.

In these scenarios would you expect women to accept a trans woman in female-only spaces? i.e. toilets and changing rooms. Or does that constitute being a dick in your view?

Who, straight in with the toilets for trans women thing, when this was a female wanting to be identified as a male and a teacher refusing to acknowledge that and was a dick about it.

There will be tricky issues like that, and competing in sports when going from male to female, but that isnt what is at issue in this specific case.

[chrispmartha]

Patrick Bateman said:

otolith said:

Why bring it up on this thread then, when this case is a trans man?

I was responding to comments relating to trans men.

So why bring up Trans Women in Female toilets? - (you do realise trans women have been using the toilets they want for decades now?)

[Patrick Bateman]

J4CKO said:

Patrick Bateman said:

J4CKO said:

bhstewie said:

J4CKO said:

bhstewie said:

I always find it odd that when faced between simply being decent and polite to someone who's probably not having the easiest of times and who would appreciate a little support or being completely and deliberately obnoxious to them on purpose how many people will try to defend someone taking the being completely and deliberately obnoxious to them on purpose approach.

Yeah, this.

I know some get all frothy about pronouns, and sometimes it seems a little too complicated and can be quite militant in its application but this just seems like a young girl who, going forward wants to be known as male.

Its not hard, and its not like he misgendered him by mistake after being used to referring to him as her, he deliberately made a fuss about saying he wouldn't, strange hill to die on.

Then, as straight, white, males in middle age, you then get painted as the enemy and that you dont understand, and hate trans people. Thing is, its not a new thing, its just that trans people now have a voice that they didnt have, but like this guy, sometimes some get it a bit wrong or go a bit over the top and those are the ones you hear about most. Can see why some trans folk get a bit defensive to be fair after all those years of taking st and having the piss taken.

Someone transitioned where I work some years back.

Without wanting to sound too rude if you didn't know any better it was almost a case of someone who looked male and who you called John on Friday walked into the office on Monday morning looking the same but with slightly longer hair and wearing lipstick asking to be called Jane.

From that point onwards John was Jane and he was she.

I wouldn't even have dreamed of calling her John or he past that point because frankly whatever the law or HR might have had to say about it it would have been a dick move to do so having been explicitly asked not to.

You don't need to agree with something or understand it to not be a dick about it.

Yeah, absolutely, saw this at Greater Manchester Police, an officer who had retired from the Police to work as a civilian in IT transitioned, and whilst he was off, ready to come back as she the GMP Lesbian and Gay association arranged a meeting of all IT staff where they went through the reasons, gender dysphoria etc and how to interact with him when she came back which was really useful, interesting and helpful.

It is what it is, and as you say, why be a dick about it ? Nobody does that lightly, its a big, big step and I cant begin to imagine how hard it must be.

My wife works in a school, and there are kids who want to be known by a different pronoun, and apparently the other kids are by and large brilliant about it.

In these scenarios would you expect women to accept a trans woman in female-only spaces? i.e. toilets and changing rooms. Or does that constitute being a dick in your view?

Who, straight in with the toilets for trans women thing, when this was a female wanting to be identified as a male and a teacher refusing to acknowledge that and was a dick about it.

There will be tricky issues like that, and competing in sports when going from male to female, but that isnt what is at issue in this specific case.

Hence why I was replying to your comments relating to trans women colleagues.

[Patrick Bateman]

chrispmartha said:

Patrick Bateman said:

otolith said:

Why bring it up on this thread then, when this case is a trans man?

I was responding to comments relating to trans men.

So why bring up Trans Women in Female toilets? - (you do realise trans women have been using the toilets they want for decades now?)

Apologies, typo. Meant to say trans women.