Bahrain Protests

[allnighter]

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

Words do not fail me. That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

I am glad you have an understanding of the situation in the region.

Edited by allnighter on Tuesday 22 February 14:39

That is my opinion. What is your understanding and take on the matter??

The situation in Bahrain is much more complicated where a majority Shiite is ruled by a minority sunni.The shiite are not divided as such and very much united for their fight for democtratic reforms + a fair share of the riches that are enjoyed by the Sunni ruling elite.Who could blame them? Unemployment is rife amongst the indegenous Shiites.The ruling Khalifa family seem to exclusively look after their own and their Saudi cousins.There are even reports that there are Saudi Sunni elements in the military and security forces who were given a fast track nationality just to keep everything Sunni.
The sectarian divide is very deep indeed, 70 percent Shiite Muslim, and the other 30 percent.There has been a persistent feeling among Bahraini Shiites that they don't get their fair share of their country's wealth, jobs, and political power.
The problem lies not in a simplistic notion of uneducated idiots not capable of knowing who they are voting for as stated by yourself and Muntu.The problem lies in the shift of power from a small Saudi backed Sunni ruling elite to a majority indeginous Shiite majority.
This will be seen as a victory for Iran who have historical ties and claims to the island (renounced by the Shah back along).
Should any "true" democratic reforms take place in the Island, this shift of powers will alarm the Saudis, Americans, and Israel too.The Khlaifa family will find it hard to hold to their cabinet positions.
The use of violence against the majority demanding reforms has accentuated their resolve, and now they are demanding the removal of the ruling family.
My opinion is the sectarian divide was made worse by the neglect and contempt the ruling family has shown towards the the Shiite majority.Now it's payback time I guess.This scenario is very much different to Egypt and Tunisia where the army sees protesters as their own.The army/security forces in Bahrain look at the protesters in term of "Them and Us", if we let them win we're finished.

[MOTORVATOR]

Jimbeaux said:

MOTORVATOR said:

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

Jimbeaux said:

allnighter said:

MOTORVATOR said:

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid.

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

Quite, the democratic process might take ages to mature but is no excuse to deny the people that right.The Eastern block countries were living under strict communist rule but it did not take them long to adopt a parliamentary democracy.As for a condenscending view that some people need to be under dictatorship to keep things in order....well words fail me.

Words do not fail me. That may be un-PC Allnighter but let's be honest, that region of tribes and religious factions do little but kill one another when they do not have adult supervision.

I am glad you have an understanding of the situation in the region.

Edited by allnighter on Tuesday 22 February 14:39

That is my opinion. What is your understanding and take on the matter??

If I may pass on the thoughts of someone living in the Gold Tower overlooking the roundabout, his take is certainly not one of tribes running around killing each other. I think the majority there are capable of rational thought.

In fact holding the population back in the first place gives rise to extremism so I would say give them what was agreed 10 years ago and continue the process to avoid that.

Speaking of Bahrain, I have agreed all along they are smarter than to allow extremism (I hope). My point to Allnighter was of the ME as a larger whole.

I understood that Jim, but there is a tendency to look at the ME as just a load of radical muslim tribes going around killing each other when in reality each individual country has different issues internally that can be overlooked by us outsiders.

We are understandably concerned with them aligning themselves with Iran but should that take precedence over the issue of disparity between people based on tribal assignment which is what Bahrain is about.

[MOTORVATOR]

allnighter said:

The use of violence against the majority demanding reforms has accentuated their resolve, and now they are demanding the removal of the ruling family.
My opinion is the sectarian divide was made worse by the neglect and contempt the ruling family has shown towards the the Shiite majority.Now it's payback time I guess.

Exactly right, in their wish to retain it all they are in danger of losing it all, when they could have maintained it as a developing concept of moving away from absolute Monarchy to constitutional.

[Jimbeaux]

allnighter said:

The situation in Bahrain is much more complicated where a majority Shiite is ruled by a minority sunni.The shiite are not divided as such and very much united for their fight for democtratic reforms + a fair share of the riches that are enjoyed by the Sunni ruling elite.Who could blame them? Unemployment is rife amongst the indegenous Shiites.The ruling Khalifa family seem to exclusively look after their own and their Saudi cousins.There are even reports that there are Saudi Sunni elements in the military and security forces who were given a fast track nationality just to keep everything Sunni.
The sectarian divide is very deep indeed, 70 percent Shiite Muslim, and the other 30 percent.There has been a persistent feeling among Bahraini Shiites that they don't get their fair share of their country's wealth, jobs, and political power.
The problem lies not in a simplistic notion of uneducated idiots not capable of knowing who they are voting for as stated by yourself and Muntu.The problem lies in the shift of power from a small Saudi backed Sunni ruling elite to a majority indeginous Shiite majority.
This will be seen as a victory for Iran who have historical ties and claims to the island (renounced by the Shah back along).
Should any "true" democratic reforms take place in the Island, this shift of powers will alarm the Saudis, Americans, and Israel too.The Khlaifa family will find it hard to hold to their cabinet positions.
The use of violence against the majority demanding reforms has accentuated their resolve, and now they are demanding the removal of the ruling family.
My opinion is the sectarian divide was made worse by the neglect and contempt the ruling family has shown towards the the Shiite majority.Now it's payback time I guess.This scenario is very much different to Egypt and Tunisia where the army sees protesters as their own.The army/security forces in Bahrain look at the protesters in term of "Them and Us", if we let them win we're finished.

Thanks for the details. Do you believe that if the Shiite majority takes over and installs Democracy, they will abide by democratic rules and treat the Sunnis fairly? I understand your view and , on paper, looks nice. However, the reality may well be more of the same but with the Shiites "getting theirs". That, and a friendly stance with Iran, is not going to promote Democracy at all. I still hold the opinion that it will be no better and could be worse if the Shiite majority takes over.
Do you realize how you are characterizing the whole situation? You are putting it all down to Sunni this and Shiite that. You are stating that this is all down to two factions of Islam that hate one another. How is Democracy going to appease any of the ambitions either of these sides strive for?

[allnighter]

Jimbeaux said:

Thanks for the details. Do you believe that if the Shiite majority takes over and installs Democracy, they will abide by democratic rules and treat the Sunnis fairly? I understand your view and , on paper, looks nice. However, the reality may well be more of the same but with the Shiites "getting theirs". That, and a friendly stance with Iran, is not going to promote Democracy at all. I still hold the opinion that it will be no better and could be worse if the Shiite majority takes over.

Better for whom? That's the crucial question.Better for the Shiites? Yes, finally they can reap the real rewards their country provides and improve their living standards, at least on paper.There is also the Iran situation and being Shiites we might see a sort of "alliance" between the two states.

Jimbeaux said:

Do you realize how you are characterizing the whole situation? You are putting it all down to Sunni this and Shiite that. You are stating that this is all down to two factions of Islam that hate one another. How is Democracy going to appease any of the ambitions either of these sides strive for?

Actually, it goes further than Sunni rulers, Shiites majority.It's more indigenous Vs Non indigenous(Sunnis came to the island about 200 years ago IIRC).
Now whether a democratic process and rule will hold is open to debate.I hold the view which is shared by another poster Motorvator, in that the ruling elite could have done more in way of reforms to integrate the Shiites and give them an active political role to avoid the current crisis, rather than alienate them further by using violence (on occasions through Saudi recruits) to reinforce a Sunni agenda.That's the reality of the situation.
I guess whether it fits with your political views or mine is irrelevant.

Edited by allnighter on Tuesday 22 February 18:51

[Derek Smith]

Eric Mc said:

The Nazis were the lawful leaders of their country. Didn't make them right.

The RIGHT to protest should be ingrained in society. Protests should not be put down by violent slaughter - whether in Libya or Northern Ireland.

The nazi party was indeed the lawful ruling party in Germany. Should we have invaded as soon as they got in? Or after the night of the long knives, or Kristallnacht? What makes us the police of the world?

We, the allies, declared war on Germany when we had the legal right to do so.

We had the option of using other forms of pressure of course. And do not forget that the nazi party had considerable popular support in its own country, not to mention this.

From what I've seen and read of the current problems in Bahrain, there was limited violence used by the state against demonstrators whose demands amounted to an overthrow of the legal rulers. Whether one sympathises with the demonstrators' point of view is not the point. If you threaten the state then what do you expect the state to do? At the moment it would appear that the army was out of order when firing but we do not know what was the trigger.

The legal government has offered talks, has withdrawn the army. It seems to me that the state wants to calm the situation. Talks are always better.

It is suggested that these are pro democracy demonstrations. One wonders if they are in reality pro theocracy.

Britain's response to the PIRA was quite restrained in the main. It was criticised by the USA, and in very strong terms at times (although this was before they suffered from terrorism on their home soil. One would assume they'd be more restrained nowadays.) What would you have said if the Americans imposed sanctions on the UK? Keep you nose out of what does not concern you would be the mildest of rebukes I feel. Let's face it, we hardly ever said that they should stop funding the PIRA, treating their leaders specially, and meeting with terrorists.

There were occasions when the army overstepped the legal line and by some distance, but given the length of time the rebellion went on it is remarkable that the army not only managed to maintain order but generally did not go on the rampage when doing so. I seem to remember that our army killed more on one day than the Barhanian one did. Mind you, the PIRA killed many more in one day than the British and Bahranians combined. And I reckon our army did brilliantly in the main. I can't think of any other country which, with such a threat, would have behaved so responsibly overall.

Should we have allowed the loyalists to demonstrate wherever they wanted? Should we have said to the republicans that they could demonstrate against the orange marches? So the right to demonstrate is conditional according to our state.

Whilst the Bahranian form of democratic government is not what we assume is right, what about the USA ignoring habeas corpus? That, in my opinion, is a much more fundamental right than the one to demonstrate where ever you wish.

Have you ever read: http://www.aeinstein.org/

That's the way to do it.

[Rodimus]

Marf said:

Rodimus, you keep saying that the BBC et al are ignoring the pro govt protestors

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/world-middle-east...

http://www.skynews.com.au/world/article.aspx?id=58...

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/21/tens-of-thousand...

These are just three articles. Do you have selective blindness?

BBC article shows a pic from day 2 and talks about the opposition.  I am sorry but that article talks about stuff that happened a few days ago and fails to mention 300k marching pro govt and asking the pearl group to make their demands clear and talk to the crown prince since doors are open.   

Sky news au doesn't show you the pro govt march.  They show you people praying.  If I didn't know st about Bahrain and I read these two articles, I would immediately believe that the whole country is in complete chaos and everyone wants the family out of power.  I wouldn't for one second believe that there are two sides to it all.  

Aol news covers it pretty much although not the same way as it was put in arabic news channels but I will give them credit for that.  If I was in Bahrain right now, I wouldn't need to google anything to know what's going on in my country.  But when I am in London it's a different case.  When I type in Bahrain in BBC and sky, they don't mention the pro govt rally.  They were fast all day to talk about the pearl group but they don't mention much about the other stuff that goes around.  They show the world how Sunnis are fighting against Shiites but they don't let the truth out.  The pro government rally asked for unity AND asked for the release of political prisoners and asked the pearl group to make their demands clear and not let the media influence them.  I support this rally but unfortunately I wasn't there to attend it but my brother and sisters did hey even my mother in law was there.

  I came across a post by a woman replying to what Nick kristof said in his article about Bahrain.  Nick kristof is a reporter for the NY Times and has managed to anger a lot of Bahrainis.   The point of this post is to show what a foreigner thinks of the pearl roundabout group and sone of the gangs they are involved with.  Her name sounds British or American but here is what she has to say about this:

"      Having upset all the English speakers on the island, you are finally realising that the situation here is complex and there are faults on both sides of the divide. The majority of people living on the island are tired of the Shia gangs that set fires and throw Molotov cocktails at weekends and see the protests as a continuation of normal Bahraini politics.

Sadly, the government’s reaction was horrific and people don’t support that either. However, it would be quite wrong to see the people on Pearl Roundabout as the goodies. We know better than that. The Shia gangs[that would be a very good story for you] have been round areas in the past couple of days where many Indians live, shouting threatening slogans and intimidating the residents. Not long ago, one of the
Shia gangs threw a Molotov cocktail at an Indian worker bicycling home from work and killed him. Why don’t you find out about why none of the 700,00 expats here supports the protesters? Read the Gulf Daily news and find out exactly why you have become a hate figure in Bahrain with your intemperate and ignorant reporting of the complex situation here.
We hope you will now write a piece applying proper standards of journalism and that it gets as much publicity as the inflammatory pieces you have written.

Helen Macilwaine
Adliya Bahrain
February 22nd, 2011

 

Munter said:

Of course you see people in the UK from many backgrounds.  And they all have the same opportunity to join the military.  However that's not the point I was making.  The point I'm making is one of motivation.  People who join the UK forces are not motivated to do so for the cash and a passport (to easy street).

You also seem to have a voided the most key question.  If the protesters are a minority.  Why not hold a full and fair election ASAP and then turn around and go "You had your chance, you didn't win power, now get on with life until the next election which is in 4 or 5 years", with the full backing of the international community?

How can they hold any elections when almost half of parliament are missing?  How can they decide what is best for the country when the opposition leaders refuse to meet the crown prince and state their demands? In fact, I posted about their demands numerous times and everyday they come up with something new.  

el stovey said:

You can't knock Rodimus, he's happily living in a country where his family are in the first team . Why on earth would he want any change? I certainly wouldn't. It's certainly in the west's interest to keep things as they are.

Perhaps some of these oil rich ME states with ethnic and religious 'issues' need autocrats  to keep the stability.  It might not be your country's way but as long as they can keep the masses happy then it will continue to work for them.  

Bahrain doesn't have democracy but I doubt they have half the social problems we have in the UK. Plenty of expats live there. Everyone knows the rules just don't break them and life is just dandy. I doubt some of these relatively new nations are even ready for a transition to democracy. 

Actually, if you must know I am happily living in your country, investing in your country, creating more jobs in your country
Who do you mean by 'the west' whose interests are to keep things as they are?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...

MOTORVATOR said:

Jimbeaux said:

Victor McDade said:

Jimbeaux said:

You may be correct; some nations are not ready or mature enough for Democracy. 

Jim, who decides when a nation is ready?

I will play your game. Obviously, the people would be the best answer. The installing of Democracy we have been into lately is not, IMO, always good. I believe Democracy is the best form of government; however, I do not believe all nations or people are mature enough or ready to handle it. Sadly, some need dictators or autocrats to keep things settled.

I agree with you Jim that the process cannot be democracy overnight as the government would not be equipped to deal with it, but they have of course been working toward this for some time now and the indication from Rodimus is that there is a feeling of either not wanting or just refusing to go to the next stage.

The Uncle in question cannot be the Prime Minister for ever, he will die. What then? Their government at present is set up that the King appoints the higher house at the moment and they are in danger of losing that as well as the controlling influence of the Prime Minister. So delay may cause them exactly the problems that Rodimus is arguing he wants to avoid. 

The crown prince I understand is fairly highly regarded but this will destroy that regard or at least diminish it and that can't be a good thing for the future.

If you take a look at the link I posted above to el stovey, the article discusses wikileaks cables regarding Bahrain and in that they talk about how the PM is slowly losing power and the crown prince gaining it.  Before the King, there was an unbelievable amount of corruption in the country.  I am not saying there isn't any corruption now but it's a big difference from 15 years ago.

[MOTORVATOR]

So it's all gone a bit quiet on the news front as everybody focuses on Libya. I'm told that it's all still going on just without the tanks etc.

Minister of the Interior has warned not to take photos or videos from windows. I guess to get a bit of control on what is released.

Saudi has just spunked £23b at trying to stop the same thing happening there.

So Rodimus, I hear some exiles have been called back for talks? Any updates from your perspective.

[Rodimus]

MOTORVATOR said:

So it's all gone a bit quiet on the news front as everybody focuses on Libya. I'm told that it's all still going on just without the tanks etc.

Minister of the Interior has warned not to take photos or videos from windows. I guess to get a bit of control on what is released.

Saudi has just spunked £23b at trying to stop the same thing happening there.

So Rodimus, I hear some exiles have been called back for talks? Any updates from your perspective.

There were exiles during the late emir's time but they were called back when the king took power. It was a means for a second chance. But two people chose to stay in the UK in london and havent stepped foot in Bahrain ever since. Those two were backed up by some high end people in the UK too and rumours has it they had support from the UK government but its unlikely to me and nothing more than BS and people trying to stir up problems between countries. There is a guy by the name of lord avebury http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Lubbock,_4th_Bar...
he has had their backs since the 90s when the same thing took place back then but it was even bigger than it is now. I dont really know why this lord hates bahrain so much but given his age, my guess is that its because the british lost control of the middle east in the 70s. Most of the middle eastern countries got their independance from Great Britain in the 70s. The exiles were sent to the UAE and from there, they travelled to london and were backed up by avebury ever since. I forgot the name of the other exile but the main one is Hasan Mishaimaa. He suffered from lung cancer and the government he is going against have been financing him for his hospital care ever since. In august 2010, the Bahraini government jailed 23 terrorists that were trying to topple the government. They were 25 people all together but two were working behind the scenes in london. Bahrain has tried to get those two bahrainis into custody but have had no luck dealing with the UK. Those two in london are Ali Al Shehabi and Hussain Mishaima.
Those two have been officially banned from Bahrain ever since. But yesterday Bahrain released 308 prisoners as part of the demands which means those two can now enter Bahrain again. This is from an article:

'' Following a detailed intelligence gathering operation by Bahrain's National Security Agency the 23 accused were arrested from Aug. 13 onwards under Bahrain's "Protecting the Community from Terrorism Act 2006."

Prosecutors named the Bahrain-based leaders of the network as- Abduljalil Al Singace, Mohamed Habeeb Al Saffaf, Abdulhadi Al Mokhaidar along with London-based Bahraini nationals Saeed Al Shehabi and Husain Mushaima.''
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-0...

The Government stopped these groups after one of their car bombs went off right in their area. It was accidental but thanks to their noobishness in terrorism, the government was able to capture them.

Whats happening now in Bahrain is that the opposition leaders have lost control over what they have started. One group still is holding in on things but the main ones lost it completely. The people want a constitutional monarchy, some of them want the king out, some of them want the king in but the PM out, others want jobs in the millitary and housing, but nothing can happen unless someone steps up and faces the crown prince. So the situation is evently dying out because without a leader, the government wont sit back and wait for them to sit in the roundabout anymore and cause even more traffic.
So this is Mishaimaa's chance to step in and sort things out. He will defintly make things worse and the roundabout group are waiting for his return.

After the protest where they marched down the highway yesterday, mishaimaa announced that he was headed to lebanon. obviously to meet with Hezbollah which makes things even worse.
these are pics of their march yesterday
http://www.2bb.me/0222-154812983535149485.jpg
http://www.2bb.me/0222-831912983535428022.jpg
above are pics of them waving the red and white bahraini flag......the yellow ones are hezbollah flags. Google Hezbollah and you will see the exact same logo there of an arm holding an AK-47 and yellow background

http://www.2bb.me/0222-290812983535685091.jpg
In this pic above is pics of the iranian leader (khomeini) and on the bottom right is an Iranian flag

http://www.2bb.me/0222-627712983535842550.jpg
more Iranian clerics and the Iranian flag above

Before the protests started in Bahrain, Hezbollah leader, nasrallah, announced on TV that his lebanese army should prepare for war against Israel. PM netanyahu of Israel made a brief speech to reply to that threat. Then we hear Iranian warships cruising the suez canal. This is why the situation in Bahrain matters so much to the gulf countries (Saudi Arabia, kuwait, Oman, Qatar, UAE) because if they stop what's going on in Bahrain, it will set an example to the others in their own countries to not pull off a stunt like this (not in those words exactly but you know what i mean). One thing people non-middle eastern dont understand is the royal families from most of these countries, all go back to one tribe 300 years ago.
I wont give a looooonnnggg history speech of how it all started but basically all royal families have been familiar with each other since the 1700s. They consider themselves to be more than allies but more like brothers. Back in those days, they went to conquer countries. Alkhalifa ruled qatar and bahrain but lost qatar to the british in the late 1800s, al subah (same tribe as alkhalifa) went to rule kuwait, but we all came from Nejd which is in Saudi Arabia. Back in those days, they would work as one tribe to sort their issues. Today, this formal meeting of leaders is called the GCC summit. And if you remember on day one of the bahrain protest (february 14), all GCC foreign ministers met in Bahrain to discuss the issues in the country. The GCC works together in issues like these and Saudi Arabia being bahrain's strongest arab ally, it is unlikely that alkhalifas will be taken out of power.

Yesterday the government warned its 7000 school teachers that if they do not show up to work by thursday, they will need to look for new jobs because schools arent closing down for their cause. They also managed to ps off the families of kids in school with their absence. Today they went back to duty. http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?st...
On a side note, Bahrain is going to eventually pay bernie Ecclestone about $100 million to compensate the teams and F1 for the cancellation of the event. Abu Dhabi have stepped in and are trying to squeeze a race between Abu Dhabi and Brazil so that Bahrain goes in between. I am not an F1 expert, i am not sure if this is possible or not but i am told, if this were to happen then Bahrain still loses money but the 100m becomes 40m.

In regards to the ministry of interior telling protesters not to shoot videos from windows, i would like to see the source for that. But if they did say that, its most likely to stop idiots from getting on buildings under construction with no safety barrier and shooting a vid from that high. I cant seem to find the link right now but there was a video of kids shooting from a high rise building and literally sitting on the floor with their legs dangling in the air with no rails, no window, nothing to stop them from falling down and killing themselves and if that happens, i bet they would blame that on the government as well.


edit: I should really learn how to write smaller posts

[MOTORVATOR]

Thanks for that Rodimus.

The photo thing I can't remember where I ended up reading about it but by the power of Firefox history I found this bit of it.

http://bahrain.no-ip.org/showpost.php?p=2037049&am...

Which links back here.

http://bahrain.no-ip.org/showthread.php?p=2037049#...

Then I'm tptally stumped as I don't understand a bit of the lingo.

[Rodimus]

MOTORVATOR said:

Thanks for that Rodimus.

The photo thing I can't remember where I ended up reading about it but by the power of Firefox history I found this bit of it.

http://bahrain.no-ip.org/showpost.php?p=2037049&am...

Which links back here.

http://bahrain.no-ip.org/showthread.php?p=2037049#...

Then I'm tptally stumped as I don't understand a bit of the lingo.

Ah I see what you mean. I couldn't help but notice that the logo on the paper is a hotel company. I am in the hotel business myself and after seeing that, I made a call and asked our staff if such requests have been made by the government. No such request was asked, infact, the website you have linked shows a pic of a young boy holding a sign and in Arabic it reads 'Al nasr' which is a nickname they call nasrallah of Hezbollah. To me, whoever took the time to lamenate a paper with silly requests like that must be too bored and nothing better to do.
There have been circulated rumours that are all complete BS that involve people making stuff up and the media twisting facts to make for better stories. I have said this before, but i am sure you will find these two articles interesting.

This article talks about how media networks such as BBC, al jazeera, CNN, etc, have twisted stuff up. It's a nice read if you want the other side of the story.
http://gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyi...
A letter to the newspaper from a Brit
http://gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyi...

The protestors have mentioned to the media that there were missing people after the violence, they showed a picture of a dead girl and said security forces stuffed her into a garbage outside a hospital, The protestors also said that the tanks deployed by Bahrain had Saudi soldiers and that they talked to them in a foreign language. All of it was complete crap.
http://gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyi...

[MOTORVATOR]

Rodimus said:

MOTORVATOR said:

Thanks for that Rodimus.

The photo thing I can't remember where I ended up reading about it but by the power of Firefox history I found this bit of it.

http://bahrain.no-ip.org/showpost.php?p=2037049&am...

Which links back here.

http://bahrain.no-ip.org/showthread.php?p=2037049#...

Then I'm tptally stumped as I don't understand a bit of the lingo.

Ah I see what you mean. I couldn't help but notice that the logo on the paper is a hotel company. I am in the hotel business myself and after seeing that, I made a call and asked our staff if such requests have been made by the government. No such request was asked, infact, the website you have linked shows a pic of a young boy holding a sign and in Arabic it reads 'Al nasr' which is a nickname they call nasrallah of Hezbollah. To me, whoever took the time to lamenate a paper with silly requests like that must be too bored and nothing better to do.
There have been circulated rumours that are all complete BS that involve people making stuff up and the media twisting facts to make for better stories. I have said this before, but i am sure you will find these two articles interesting.

This article talks about how media networks such as BBC, al jazeera, CNN, etc, have twisted stuff up. It's a nice read if you want the other side of the story.
http://gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyi...
A letter to the newspaper from a Brit
http://gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyi...

The protestors have mentioned to the media that there were missing people after the violence, they showed a picture of a dead girl and said security forces stuffed her into a garbage outside a hospital, The protestors also said that the tanks deployed by Bahrain had Saudi soldiers and that they talked to them in a foreign language. All of it was complete crap.
http://gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyi...

It is interesting to see others takes on it. I referred earlier to the fact that my best mate is out there at the moment whilst working in Saudi.

His apartment is actually in Gold tower and as you know you don't get much closer to the pearl roundabout than that. He moved out to the Gulf hotel on Monday as he felt he didn't want his young kids experiencing what was going on.

Strangely enough he has moved the family back to the apartment today as obviously the Gulf Hotel has been surrounded by pro government protestors so he wasn't winning.

I get daily updates by e-mail from him and we obviously talk on the phone regularly.

What sticks out for me are the following points.

At all times he has told me that the protests were peaceful until the intervention of the police. That said he would not know what happened the first night in the residential compounds.

When the police intervened his wife witnessed people being beaten, whipped and shot during the encounter last Friday.

He states that whilst the immediate thought is that this all tribal, it is a fact that all opposition protestors are not Shia and not all pro government are Sunni.

He has little concern for their own safety as neither side is anything but pleasant and helpful to the Ex pats. That is not where the animosity lies.

He stated to me on the 17th / 18th that the army personnel were Saudi.

It was blatantly evident to him that the pro government protestors were from the upper classes.

This afternoon as he moved his family back he thought that it would calm down as one march in had just finished and he suspected people would start leaving. I'll let you have the rest in his own words.

"But as I was sitting here I noticed that a group of people was starting to come up the road from the south. There is a bend in the road just behind where I first saw this group of people and as I watched, the front of this group kept on coming and coming but the back of this group did not stop. This is a six lane road that they were coming up, which was covered from curb to curb with people and with men on one side and women on the other. There must now be more than a million people here, the roundabout is teeming, packed with people and only half the marchers have so far got there. The noise is deafening, with the chanting and the cheering of one giant mass of humanity. They are not going to go away until they get what they want but I will say again that these are peaceful demonstrations and I expect them to remain so."


So what do we get from all this?

Yes I agree with you some of the news stories are obviously overdone and pics of the mauled kid are not telling us what is really happening. By the same token it is very clear from the above links what pocket the Gulf Daily News is in when they try to state that there were only ever 10,000 involved in the first place.

Libya is obviously keeping this off centre stage but this is not a unified country where there is a sufficient majority on either side to maintain the status quo or for the complete downfall of the monarchy.

[Victor McDade]

Pressure on the King to sack the PM intensify. At least there seems to be some sort of political solution to this all - replace the PM and have both chambers of Parliament fully elected? Will the King back down to these demands?

FT said:

Bahrain’s increasingly assertive opposition movement flexed its muscles on Saturday, staging a massive demonstration in central Manama at short notice to demand the ousting of the kingdom’s prime minister.

Tens of thousands of demonstrators marched on the premier’s downtown office, surrounding the block in a sea of red-and-white Bahraini flags and banners calling for Sheikh Khalifa bin Salman al-Khalifa to step down after four decades.

The government removed five ministers this weekend to mollify the opposition, but in addition to the king, the prime minister has emerged as the main target of the protesters’ ire.

He has killed everybody,” said Maki Hasan Mushaima, one of the demonstrators and a cousin of the first protester killed by the country’s security forces earlier this month. “We need to bring the government down.”

Only about half of Bahrain’s 1.2m population are nationals, and the country is smaller than the Faroe Islands. However, the country is strategically and symbolically important due to hosting of the US Fifth Fleet, its location between Saudi Arabia and Iran, and demographic split between Shia and Sunni Muslims.

Saturday’s march appeared to be a well-organised escalation from previous demonstrations, which have largely been focused around the Pearl roundabout on the outskirts of Manama, which has now turned into a makeshift encampment for protesters.

Word of a march on the prime minister’s office and the nearby foreign ministry only started spreading on Friday evening – after another huge protest organised and led mainly by the Shia clergy and Shia and Sunni opposition politicians.


On Saturday morning it was unclear how many would join the march, but the scale, speed and organisation of the demonstration was a show of force by the now mainly youth-led opposition.

Older men guided demonstrators along the route and formed human chains to keep younger, perhaps more emotional, protesters away from the entrances to the prime minister’s office and the foreign ministry.

Meanwhile, several kept up the rear, tidying up litter and banners left by the march

[url]FT|
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c9f7c1cc-41c8-11e0-8366-...

Edited by Victor McDade on Saturday 26th February 20:23

[Rodimus]

Motorvator -
I would suggest this for your friend http://www.dragonresorthotel.com/
It's far away from any protests and 15 minutes from the capital, his route to Saudi is a totally different side where he won't be anywhere close to the pearl roundabout.  
Another thing for him to know is Bahrain has a population of a bit more than a million.  About 550,000 of those are Bahraini citizens.  There is no government poll or any link to show you current numbers between Sunni and Shiite in Bahrain but some places will tell you 70% Shiite and some will say 66%, the more recent one that people are using is 66% so let's use that as an example.  66% of that 550,000 is at 393,000, so with this I can tell you, your friend has exaggerated the numbers marching.  Also bare in mind, within that Shiite community are Persians and they are mostly middle and high class people in Bahrain.  They average at 73,000 of the Shiite population. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_Bahrain...
They are loyal to the government and the Bahraini Shiites don't like them because to them, they believe that the Persians have taken their jobs.  If you ask a news reporter to ask them if there are any differences between both Shiite communities, right now they would say no, but ask this question a month ago and you would get a totally different reply.
So with the figures above, if the opposition groups claim to be 500, 600k, it's all bull.  The opposition are all Shiite bahraini, they say there are a lot of Sunnis joining them in the roundabout but it is an exaggerated amount.  There is only one opposition group that is Sunni and they don't even have 40 members.  Their leader is a Sunni that was exiled in Bahrain during the late emir's time.  He was pardoned when the king took power in 1999.

About the Saudis, yes they were at the border of Bahrain but on their land.  The reason why the saudi king pumped billions into his country is because the saudi eastern region were going to against the government.  The majority in the eastern area are shiites but they are a minority in saudi arabia.  Their tanks were at the borders.  Bahrain never had back up from Saudi Arabia, we have our own army and it was deployed because we bahrainis are used to riots and their Molotov bombs.  These tanks would be protection for the riot police and military just incase of violence.  Which reminds me, here take a look at this vid.  On another thread someone called me a fking idiot for believing that those aren't real bullets fired directly AT the protestors.  I said they were rubber bullets.  We were both wrong.  Live ammunition shot in the air.   
http://www.peacebahrain.com/2011/02/army-warning-t...


Victor- even if the PM goes, and they agree on a constitutional monarchy, the opposition groups will demand more next.  The government has fired ministers, shuffled people around, and will continue until they come up with a solution to calm things down.  But Today, an opposition leader who returned from London, asked the crowd to continue putting pressure on the government and to surround government building and if they have to, they should prepare themselves to die.  This is a dying man, and he knows it, he suffers from cancer and is hinting that his followers will be violent if they don't get what they demand.  They also want jobs in the military.  If they were loyal to their country, they would of had these jobs but they have always showed loyalty to Iran first and that affects our security.  

[MOTORVATOR]

Rodimus, I thought that when I read his mail in the first place but thought I would post it as he has no axe to grind and only tells me as he sees it.

Your last point to Victor is really the crux of this issue though isn't it. The Royals seem damned if they do and damned if they don't.

It's very difficult to see an easy long term solution, although it seems that Bahrainis as a whole come across as a slightly better educated bunch than some other middle easterners so just maybe sense will prevail.

I guess it will come down to whether the Crown Prince can convince the whole nation of his objectives not to allow the radicalists to get or maintain a strong foothold. To do that he will have to show what he is doing to remove any inequalities.

I would think the uncle's time is over but I imagine he needs to know that if he goes that will be an end to it.

[Rodimus]

MOTORVATOR said:

Rodimus, I thought that when I read his mail in the first place but thought I would post it as he has no axe to grind and only tells me as he sees it.

Your last point to Victor is really the crux of this issue though isn't it. The Royals seem damned if they do and damned if they don't.

It's very difficult to see an easy long term solution, although it seems that Bahrainis as a whole come across as a slightly better educated bunch than some other middle easterners so just maybe sense will prevail.

I guess it will come down to whether the Crown Prince can convince the whole nation of his objectives not to allow the radicalists to get or maintain a strong foothold. To do that he will have to show what he is doing to remove any inequalities.

I would think the uncle's time is over but I imagine he needs to know that if he goes that will be an end to it.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't, couldn't of said it better myself. There seems to be no win situation for the government but I have faith in the crown prince because I have seen what he has done to change Bahrain and do his best to stop corruption. Every country in the world deals with corruption but it isn't easy to get rid off. He has done things in the past that went against his uncle and at one point, fired his cousin from a high government position because they have abused the system. He has put a Shiite minister for housing, Shiite deputy prime minister, Shiite health minister, and Shiite electricity and gas minister. He fired four people including two from the family and shuffled positions but even the removal of his uncle isn't an easy process, but if there will be someone who will change what goes on in the country, it would be him.
It would be easier if they asked for the removal of the uncle, but instead they want to be able to elect their own PM and no doubt he would be a radical Shiite and under their command. The opposition leader that returned from the UK, mashimaa, knows a constitutional monarchy won't happen so he will use that and get his people to be violent. His people don't include all of Bahraini Shiites but I would say he can gather a 50,000 army to do his dirty work, easily. At this point, I can't do anything much but hope that it will all be over soon.

[Fittster]

Troops from a number of Gulf states, including Saudi Arabia, have arrived in Bahrain in response to a request from the small Gulf kingdom, officials say.

It comes a day after the worst violence since seven anti-government protesters were killed in clashes with security forces last month.

Dozens of people were injured on Sunday as protesters pushed back police and barricaded roads.

Bahrain's opposition said the foreign troops amounted to an occupation.

A Saudi official said about 1,000 Saudi Arabian troops arrived in Bahrain early on Monday.

The UAE also said it would send troops, the AFP news agency said.

Witnesses told the Reuters news agency that about 150 Saudi Arabian armoured troop carriers plus other vehicles entered Bahrain on the causeway that links the two kingdoms.

The troops are part of a deployment by the Gulf Co-operation Council (GCC), a six-nation regional grouping which includes Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates.
It is believed they are intended to guard key facilities such as oil and gas installations and financial institutions.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-127297...

I forget, which side are we supporting in this one?

[MOTORVATOR]

Mate just txt me to say he cannot get over the causeway from Saudi as waiting for a huge convoy of Saudi military vehicles to cross.

Says he is going to pick the kids up and fly back now.

Expect it to kick off big style over the course of the next few days as the Saudis express that they will not have the royal family displaced.

[Victor McDade]

Saudi troops called in to help crush a Shiite dominated protest - oh for fk sake that's really going to help things now. Bahrain pays for mercenaries to come in and 'protect' their oil interests and no one really cares. Madman Gadaffi pays for mercenaries to protect his oil interests and the west is calling for war - yup sounds fair.

[Mermaid]

Victor McDade said:

Saudi troops called in to help crush a Shiite dominated protest - oh for fk sake that's really going to help things now. Bahrain pays for mercenaries to come in and 'protect' their oil interests and no one really cares. Madman Gadaffi pays for mercenaries to protect his oil interests and the west is calling for war - yup sounds fair.

The religion of convenience.