Junior Doctor's contracts petition

[sidicks]

mph1977 said:

something of may 1997 really cemented it , although there was a degree of it present from 1990 or so

That's what I was hoping you might say!

It's something that's going to be near impossible to reverse, since as you identify, the ones doing the 'cutting' are actually the ones that should be 'cutting' themselves!

[ucb]

This subject is really not that difficult to understand.

The junior doc basic salary covering the 40hrs standard per week in "normal hours" will be marginally increased. The notion of of what constitutes a "normal hour" will be expanded from weekdays 7-7 to weekdays 7-22:00 and Saturdays 07-22:00.

Most junior docs get a salary supplement for overnight & weekend work ie the hours not included above. These hours will now be less numerous and less well paid resulting in a significant reduction in take home pay.

[mph1977]

sidicks said:

mph1977 said:

something of may 1997 really cemented it , although there was a degree of it present from 1990 or so

That's what I was hoping you might say!

It's something that's going to be near impossible to reverse, since as you identify, the ones doing the 'cutting' are actually the ones that should be 'cutting' themselves!

there in began the era ' all tractor production records have been broken again comrade' being the most important metric ...

[Patent]

sidicks said:

mph1977 said:

something of may 1997 really cemented it , although there was a degree of it present from 1990 or so

That's what I was hoping you might say!

It's something that's going to be near impossible to reverse, since as you identify, the ones doing the 'cutting' are actually the ones that should be 'cutting' themselves!

Medway NHS Trust paid an accountant a million pounds in attempt to balance the books. Chief executive - from Autralia on £225000 per annum.......

That's your neck of the woods isn't it Sid?

[sidicks]

Patent said:

Medway NHS Trust paid an accountant a million pounds in attempt to balance the books. Chief executive - from Autralia on £225000 per annum.......

That's your neck of the woods isn't it Sid?

Broadly my neck of the woods but not the Trust that my wife worked for.

[Patent]

sidicks said:

Broadly my neck of the woods but not the Trust that my wife worked for.

Didn't realise - is she a Dr?

[sidicks]

Patent said:

Didn't realise - is she a Dr?

No - this was a few years ago.

[eldar]

ucb said:

This subject is really not that difficult to understand.

The junior doc basic salary covering the 40hrs standard per week in "normal hours" will be marginally increased. The notion of of what constitutes a "normal hour" will be expanded from weekdays 7-7 to weekdays 7-22:00 and Saturdays 07-22:00.

Most junior docs get a salary supplement for overnight & weekend work ie the hours not included above. These hours will now be less numerous and less well paid resulting in a significant reduction in take home pay.

So, a slight increase in pay, same basic number of hours, spread over more hours and overtime within those hours paid at basic hourly rate?

What rate of pay for hours 22:00 to 07:00?

[burpface]

sidicks said:

Broadly my neck of the woods but not the Trust that my wife worked for.

What did your wife do Sid?

[sidicks]

burpface said:

What did your wife do Sid?

Low paid, non-medical staff.

[Rovinghawk]

Dixy said:

A junior doctor fresh from graduating gets paid £22k basic at present, the report does NOT say what will be paid after.

The report says that they will be paid more basic. This is different to what might be inferred from your statement.

To balance, enhanced rates will be payable for a reduced scope of hours. The intention would appear to be a cost-neutral end result.

AIUI, working hours will be less focussed on 'office hours' & more evenly spread out. I presume (although I'm not as expert as some here proclaim themselves to be) that this is because patients are ill/injured throughout the week.

[jjlynn27]

Rovinghawk said:

I'm not hung up on any comments you make- you're unimportant in my life.

Good. That's a big worry of my shoulders

Rovinghawk said:

I don't know how many jd there are. I read the independent report attached to the petition link and accepted their conclusions as I presume they did their due dligence before publication

I don't know what jd get paid. I refer you to my previous comment re the independent report.

That same report has both number of doctors and their pay.

Either you didn't read the report, or you didn't understand what they meant by 'number of doctors' and 'doctor salaries'.

Rovinghawk said:

The (unanswered) question was what cuts have been made to NHS spending. The facts are that spending has increased not decreased.

As has number of operations, obese people, A&E attendance.
And yet that spending is still lowest per capita (excluding Italy) than any other developed country, while providing much better care.

Back on topic, hopefully;
One of the premises used to initiate this report was now completely discredited claim about number of deaths for patients admitted over the weekend. Those figures were taken out of context so much that they became completely meaningless.

[Rovinghawk]

jjlynn27 said:

Rovinghawk said:

I don't know how many jd there are. I read the independent report attached to the petition link and accepted their conclusions as I presume they did their due dligence before publication

I don't know what jd get paid. I refer you to my previous comment re the independent report.

That same report has both number of doctors and their pay.

Either you didn't read the report, or you didn't understand what they meant by 'number of doctors' and 'doctor salaries'.

I have to confess that I read the executive summary. I accepted its conclusions as I presumed they'd done their due diligence.

jjlynn27 said:

Rovinghawk said:

The (unanswered) question was what cuts have been made to NHS spending. The facts are that spending has increased not decreased.

As has number of operations, obese people, A&E attendance.
And yet that spending is still lowest per capita (excluding Italy) than any other developed country, while providing much better care.

You nevertheless accept that the "cuts" mentioned do not actually exist?

jjlynn27 said:

Back on topic, hopefully;
One of the premises used to initiate this report was now completely discredited claim about number of deaths for patients admitted over the weekend. Those figures were taken out of context so much that they became completely meaningless.

Do you have evidence to prove that statement or can I dismiss it with the same lack of proof to the contrary?

[ucb]

Increased mortality associated with weekend hospital admission: a case for expanded seven day services?
BMJ 2015; 351 doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.h4596 (Published 05 September 2015)
Cite this as: BMJ 2015;351:h4596

He's probably referring to this.

[jjlynn27]

Rovinghawk said:

I have to confess that I read the executive summary. I accepted its conclusions as I presumed they'd done their due diligence.

Due diligence has nothing to do with salary and number of docs.

Rovinghawk said:

You nevertheless accept that the "cuts" mentioned do not actually exist?

You keep repeating about cuts, I'm unsure who mentioned them, and they would be relevant only if looked through the prism of scope and quantity of services provided. I didn't do enough research or read enough executives summaries to say if the higher investment represent actual increase in funding or cuts.

jjlynn27 said:

Back on topic, hopefully;
One of the premises used to initiate this report was now completely discredited claim about number of deaths for patients admitted over the weekend. Those figures were taken out of context so much that they became completely meaningless.

Rovinghawk said:

Do you have evidence to prove that statement or can I dismiss it with the same lack of proof to the contrary?

You can do whatever you like. Nothing that I post will change your mind, that much is obvious.

This is a good start for people with slightly open mind;

https://www.ohe.org/news/guest-post-economics-elev...
and is a summary of work by Prof M Sutton.
Article available here ; http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hec.320...

Edited by jjlynn27 on Sunday 18th October 22:40

[ucb]

eldar said:

ucb said:

This subject is really not that difficult to understand.

The junior doc basic salary covering the 40hrs standard per week in "normal hours" will be marginally increased. The notion of of what constitutes a "normal hour" will be expanded from weekdays 7-7 to weekdays 7-22:00 and Saturdays 07-22:00.

Most junior docs get a salary supplement for overnight & weekend work ie the hours not included above. These hours will now be less numerous and less well paid resulting in a significant reduction in take home pay.

So, a slight increase in pay, same basic number of hours, spread over more hours and overtime within those hours paid at basic hourly rate?

What rate of pay for hours 22:00 to 07:00?

There's no rate as such. There's merely a percentage of basic salary added to the basic which is dependent on total hours worked and the way the doctors out of hours worked is delivered ie as shifts or on call from home. If the percentage of unsociable hours falls (either through changing the definition or though hours actually worked) the percentage falls. This change applies to all doctors on that rota. The percentage is between 0-100% of basic salary.

[ninja-lewis]

eldar said:

ucb said:

This subject is really not that difficult to understand.

The junior doc basic salary covering the 40hrs standard per week in "normal hours" will be marginally increased. The notion of of what constitutes a "normal hour" will be expanded from weekdays 7-7 to weekdays 7-22:00 and Saturdays 07-22:00.

Most junior docs get a salary supplement for overnight & weekend work ie the hours not included above. These hours will now be less numerous and less well paid resulting in a significant reduction in take home pay.

So, a slight increase in pay, same basic number of hours, spread over more hours and overtime within those hours paid at basic hourly rate?

What rate of pay for hours 22:00 to 07:00?

Under the current proposals, the current banding system would be abolished (compensated by a 15% increase in basic pay) and unsocial hours worked would be paid at premium rates. NHS Employers' preferred option is:

Nights 2200-0700: basic hourly rate +50%
Sundays 0700-2200: basic hourly rate +33%

The exact rates were left to negotiation (within the overall cost-neutral envelope)

NHS Employers also proposes an Availability Allowance be paid to junior doctors in return for an obligation to be available on standby to return to work. NHS Employers suggested a flat rate of 5% of basic pay or perhaps different rates to account for frequency of on-call working. Again, the exact rates being left to negotiation.

[TheEnd]

ninja-lewis said:

Under the current proposals, the current banding system would be abolished (compensated by a 15% increase in basic pay) and unsocial hours worked would be paid at premium rates. NHS Employers' preferred option is:

Nights 2200-0700: basic hourly rate +50%
Sundays 0700-2200: basic hourly rate +33%

The exact rates were left to negotiation (within the overall cost-neutral envelope)

NHS Employers also proposes an Availability Allowance be paid to junior doctors in return for an obligation to be available on standby to return to work. NHS Employers suggested a flat rate of 5% of basic pay or perhaps different rates to account for frequency of on-call working. Again, the exact rates being left to negotiation.

Finally someone spills the beans on the details with vague rhetoric and tales of doom and destruction.

[anonymous-user]

jjlynn27 said:

You can do whatever you like. Nothing that I post will change your mind, that much is obvious.

This is a good start for people with slightly open mind;

https://www.ohe.org/news/guest-post-economics-elev...
and is a summary of work by Prof M Sutton.
Article available here ; http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hec.320...

It's early - can someone please explain this absolute .3% and relative 16%. It's the relative part I'm struggling with.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 19th October 07:40

[mph1977]

ninja-lewis said:

Under the current proposals, the current banding system would be abolished (compensated by a 15% increase in basic pay) and unsocial hours worked would be paid at premium rates. NHS Employers' preferred option is:

Nights 2200-0700: basic hourly rate +50%
Sundays 0700-2200: basic hourly rate +33%

The exact rates were left to negotiation (within the overall cost-neutral envelope)

NHS Employers also proposes an Availability Allowance be paid to junior doctors in return for an obligation to be available on standby to return to work. NHS Employers suggested a flat rate of 5% of basic pay or perhaps different rates to account for frequency of on-call working. Again, the exact rates being left to negotiation.

so a system closer to that covering AfC staff groups ( although more generous for night hours and less generous for sunday daytimes)