Nasty crash in B’Ham

[oyster]

98elise said:

poo at Paul's said:

Sa Calobra said:

It needs Armco just as the access off the M6 into central Birmingham needs Armco

It doesn't. It just needs everyone not to drive like s.

Agreed, a 40mph stretch of road should not need Armco.

I'd have thought the same until a couple of days ago - it's now been proven (well assumed, not proven) that speed moderation (whether to the limit or the conditions) was not sufficient to prevent the death of many innocent people. So if we can't enforce legal barriers to prevent loss of life, then it's time to enforce physical barriers (armco, driverless vehicles etc).

[andrewparker]

TooMany2cvs said:

andrewparker said:

Weird isn’t it. Everyday I see Asian families dropping children off at the school gates and the children are very rarely belted in. I’ve seen a mother pop a 2-year-old in the front seat and drive off. I think it’s disgraceful behaviour personally.

There should be a law against it!

Haha, touché!

[Digga]

Chromegrill said:

The underpass is quite easy to lose a sense of speed in as there is a long downwards slope either side...

The Daily Mail map shows the accident site as opposite the mosque, which is nonsense as the underpass is nowhere near the mosque, the site of the accident is near the Fiveways end of the underpass 500m to the west. If a car was barrelling along from Fiveways and crossed the central reservation on entering the underpass where there's a bit of a bend, it could easily land on the opposite side, where the badly wrecked cars were lying.

Agree with the above, I too figured the car came into the underpass in the downhill direction, from Fiveways. You could easily carry a lot of speed that way; far, far too much for the road.

I'd spoken with a mate a few times about driving in the city. In our shared experience of driving there for decades, the standard of driving, in general, in Birmingham has got far worse - more lawless, wreckless, random and inconsiderate - over the last five or ten years.

RIP to those lost who were not instrumental in the incident.

[TTmonkey]

Is it fact that the Audi S3 driver/passengers were of Asian decent? I hadn't heard this yet.

In fact, I've heard nothing except details about the driver of the Taxi. And I can guarantee he wasn't breaking any speed records.

[loose cannon]

The other guy that was reported as being thrown out of the Audi named as
taqueer hussain

[Taaaaang]

J4CKO said:

There does seem to be a trend emerging of massive accidents in urban settings involving Fast cars driven by young Asian males.

The trouble is if you mention that the "racist" card comes out but six people have died so perhaps if it is mentioned and tackled then others need not, it isnt Welsh Octogenarian ladies, or middle aged white home counties chaps crashing at ridiculous speeds in town centres. Of course young drivers, especially males of any background are prone to crashing but it seems disproportionate that young guys from an Asian background are the ones getting hurt and killed, but of course, quick, throw the "racist" comment out there because to mention a pattern you see emerging is only ok if its "your own" or if you are some daft hate filled Facebook Britain First knobhead who just loves stuff like this to reinforce their cretinous opinions.

There perhaps needs to be some targeted education and a look at why this is happening, not just alluding and skirting round the subject because it is considered taboo.

You're right. I drive around Bham city centre every day multiple times and at all hours and the driving I see on every single one of them is horrendous. 99% of the time the drivers are Subcontinental. I've been doing this for 15 years and the situation just gets worse and worse.

I don't know whether the shocking driving is a cultural thing or whether it's just that the majority of young people in the city are of Subcontinental descent, therefore it's more likely due to that.

The other thing to consider is that very few young men can afford to buy and insure the kinds of cars capable of these lunatic accelerations and speeds; it is obvious to anyone who lives here that owning or driving these cars as status symbols is more important to Subcontinentals than it is to others of different backgrounds. I don't recall the last time I saw a very fast car driven by a young driver who was not of asian descent.

It's not just driving that is appalling here in Birmingham; the whole city seems to becoming lawless full stop.

[Fittster]

Digga said:

Chromegrill said:

The underpass is quite easy to lose a sense of speed in as there is a long downwards slope either side...

The Daily Mail map shows the accident site as opposite the mosque, which is nonsense as the underpass is nowhere near the mosque, the site of the accident is near the Fiveways end of the underpass 500m to the west. If a car was barrelling along from Fiveways and crossed the central reservation on entering the underpass where there's a bit of a bend, it could easily land on the opposite side, where the badly wrecked cars were lying.

Agree with the above, I too figured the car came into the underpass in the downhill direction, from Fiveways. You could easily carry a lot of speed that way; far, far too much for the road.

I'd spoken with a mate a few times about driving in the city. In our shared experience of driving there for decades, the standard of driving, in general, in Birmingham has got far worse - more lawless, wreckless, random and inconsiderate - over the last five or ten years.

RIP to those lost who were not instrumental in the incident.

If you have come from Fiveways, there's a good chance you've been stopped at the lights by the Fiveways railway station and there used to be a speed camera there as well.

[dromong]

Taaaaang said:

It's not just driving that is appalling here in Birmingham; the whole city seems to becoming lawless full stop.

A good friend of mine lived in Selly Oak until last year, he is of the same opinion, broken into several times and 2 Honda's stolen from him, he became so deluded with the place he has moved away and gone to the North west Highlands to bring up his family, he reckons it is the best decision he has ever made in his life.

[Taaaaang]

Fittster said:

Digga said:

Chromegrill said:

The underpass is quite easy to lose a sense of speed in as there is a long downwards slope either side...

The Daily Mail map shows the accident site as opposite the mosque, which is nonsense as the underpass is nowhere near the mosque, the site of the accident is near the Fiveways end of the underpass 500m to the west. If a car was barrelling along from Fiveways and crossed the central reservation on entering the underpass where there's a bit of a bend, it could easily land on the opposite side, where the badly wrecked cars were lying.

Agree with the above, I too figured the car came into the underpass in the downhill direction, from Fiveways. You could easily carry a lot of speed that way; far, far too much for the road.

I'd spoken with a mate a few times about driving in the city. In our shared experience of driving there for decades, the standard of driving, in general, in Birmingham has got far worse - more lawless, wreckless, random and inconsiderate - over the last five or ten years.

RIP to those lost who were not instrumental in the incident.

If you have come from Fiveways, there's a good chance you've been stopped at the lights by the Fiveways railway station and there used to be a speed camera there as well.

It's quite a way from the underpass still.

The three lanes seem to encourage fast starts as it's a clear view downhill and if you have been caught there there's usually not much traffic in front (nobody turns left crossing that road, to go left there are better options). I've been guilty of doing too much speed on this stretch myself. It's really easy to just cruise up to 60 without it seeming too fast. Just like the Birchfield flyover, 60/70 happens all day every day.

The big problem going downhill from those lights is the shocking lane discipline and late manoeuvres of those wishing to go to the junction by McDonalds rather than stay straight and under.

That speed camera hasn't worked for years.

[Taaaaang]

dro said:

Taaaaang said:

It's not just driving that is appalling here in Birmingham; the whole city seems to becoming lawless full stop.

A good friend of mine lived in Selly Oak until last year, he is of the same opinion, broken into several times and 2 Honda's stolen from him, he became so deluded with the place he has moved away and gone to the North west Highlands to bring up his family, he reckons it is the best decision he has ever made in his life.

I don't live too far from Selly Oak myself. I've never had any attempted burglaries thankfully; I genuinely think having a drug dealer spec white, tinted X6 actually acts as a deterrent in this st hole city...crazy as that sounds.

I'm the last of my school friends still here...another couple of years and I'm out of here. I'm not bringing my kids up here. Cotswolds here I come!

[sgtBerbatov]

Taaaaang said:

J4CKO said:

There does seem to be a trend emerging of massive accidents in urban settings involving Fast cars driven by young Asian males.

The trouble is if you mention that the "racist" card comes out but six people have died so perhaps if it is mentioned and tackled then others need not, it isnt Welsh Octogenarian ladies, or middle aged white home counties chaps crashing at ridiculous speeds in town centres. Of course young drivers, especially males of any background are prone to crashing but it seems disproportionate that young guys from an Asian background are the ones getting hurt and killed, but of course, quick, throw the "racist" comment out there because to mention a pattern you see emerging is only ok if its "your own" or if you are some daft hate filled Facebook Britain First knobhead who just loves stuff like this to reinforce their cretinous opinions.

There perhaps needs to be some targeted education and a look at why this is happening, not just alluding and skirting round the subject because it is considered taboo.

You're right. I drive around Bham city centre every day multiple times and at all hours and the driving I see on every single one of them is horrendous. 99% of the time the drivers are Subcontinental. I've been doing this for 15 years and the situation just gets worse and worse.

I don't know whether the shocking driving is a cultural thing or whether it's just that the majority of young people in the city are of Subcontinental descent, therefore it's more likely due to that.

The other thing to consider is that very few young men can afford to buy and insure the kinds of cars capable of these lunatic accelerations and speeds; it is obvious to anyone who lives here that owning or driving these cars as status symbols is more important to Subcontinentals than it is to others of different backgrounds. I don't recall the last time I saw a very fast car driven by a young driver who was not of asian descent.

It's not just driving that is appalling here in Birmingham; the whole city seems to becoming lawless full stop.

The thing is it's a big thing in the culture to look like you're a made man. The fact you have a high performance vehicle and can drive it at speed is the human equivelent of a peacock and his feathers.

The problem is with a lot of these vehicles they're set up/made to look like they're expensive. But the parts underpinning them aren't proper "racing" quality. They'll be the cheapest parts available from ECP or even eBay. And if you've been in the market for car parts, "brand new" parts from eBay are questionable quality especially if shipped from China. The problem is further compounded with MOT testing stations who will take a blind eye to a car just to get it through the test (and this happens a lot in Birmingham).

There's also the issue of how these lads look after the car. I'm working on my Corolla to make it a bit sportier, but not in terms of engine power. I'm of the old school persuasion that if a car can go around a corner quickly then it's a quick car. I'm not racing it on the streets, at some point it will be a track car. But for a purely safety thing for me, I wanted to make sure that the contact patches the car has were the best I could get and it could stop properly. So I've improved the brakes and I've put wider tyres on it, along with sports tyres and new stronger/stiffer bushes. I get a lot more grip from this, and it's been configured properly. Again, this isn't so I can be a dick and drive fast, it's so I know if I need the car to move out of the way of something I can do it confidently.

I don't buy the "black ice" argument some have put forward here. That is a main artery to the city and the gritters would've seen off the ice on that stretch of road. The roads weren't too bad on Saturday night either, damp but not soaking wet. They were racing, as they always do on that stretch and have done for years before hand. It's also a strange situation where Birmingham City Council deployed the average speed cameras on roads like the Hagley Road, but not on known "fast" stretches like the middleway.

The way you see the cones marking out the path of the car, I wouldn't be surprised if it bottomed out or became unstable, maybe because to cut springs to lower the car are cheaper than buying proper lowering springs. But we all know what cutting the springs can do as well.

I've grown up in Birmingham all my life, and live near Sparkhill. I've grown up with people of all different religions and races etc. It's a prestige thing to have these super cars, and like everything else you're showing off and stroking your ego even more by going fast in these cars. I used to live down the road from where that poor woman was killed by some dhead in a fast car doing 70mph on a 30mph road, the woman was coming out of the side road and he couldn't stop and smashed in to her. Killed her outright.

It's a problem in Birmingham, and to be honest Birmingham is fast turning in to a st hole. Not because of anything else other than dhead young lads who think the world owes them something and go out of their way to show off what they've "got".

RIP to the taxi man and the two passengers. They shouldn't have been involved and should be at work this morning. The rest of the gobstes thinking they're next in line to star in a Fast and Furious film, well it's hard to say anything about them without being crude and vulgar.

Edited by sgtBerbatov on Monday 18th December 11:29

[Digga]

Fittster said:

Digga said:

Chromegrill said:

The underpass is quite easy to lose a sense of speed in as there is a long downwards slope either side...

The Daily Mail map shows the accident site as opposite the mosque, which is nonsense as the underpass is nowhere near the mosque, the site of the accident is near the Fiveways end of the underpass 500m to the west. If a car was barrelling along from Fiveways and crossed the central reservation on entering the underpass where there's a bit of a bend, it could easily land on the opposite side, where the badly wrecked cars were lying.

Agree with the above, I too figured the car came into the underpass in the downhill direction, from Fiveways. You could easily carry a lot of speed that way; far, far too much for the road.

I'd spoken with a mate a few times about driving in the city. In our shared experience of driving there for decades, the standard of driving, in general, in Birmingham has got far worse - more lawless, wreckless, random and inconsiderate - over the last five or ten years.

RIP to those lost who were not instrumental in the incident.

If you have come from Fiveways, there's a good chance you've been stopped at the lights by the Fiveways railway station and there used to be a speed camera there as well.

I meant more from that direction than a clear run down from 5ways. Road is 40mph and after the camera - assuming both that it is working or that the drivers cared anyway - you could easily add more speed into the underpass.

As for people commenting about the standard of driving in Birmingham, back in the early 90s when I was doing 20 or 30 odd thousand miles per year, a fair bit, from time to time, was in and around the city. My customers were in all the glamorous bits; Saltley, Bordesley Green, Small Heath, West Brom', Sandwell etc. etc. so you saw all sides of the place. IMHO even at that time, the ethnicity of the city was extremely diverse and I think it apt that others identify a sub-set of the population being responsible for the decline in standards, because the present ethnic mix is pretty much as it was before.

[dromong]

Taaaaang said:

I don't live too far from Selly Oak myself. I've never had any attempted burglaries thankfully; I genuinely think having a drug dealer spec white, tinted X6 actually acts as a deterrent in this st hole city...crazy as that sounds.

I'm the last of my school friends still here...another couple of years and I'm out of here. I'm not bringing my kids up here. Cotswolds here I come!

My mates biggest regret is that he didn't do it sooner, maybe time to start putting the plan into action .
.

[Taaaaang]

Digga said:

IMHO even at that time, the ethnicity of the city was extremely diverse and I think it apt that others identify a sub-set of the population being responsible for the decline in standards, because the present ethnic mix is pretty much as it was before.

I don't think that's correct.

I'm fairly sure that over 50% of youngsters in the city are now born to immigrant parents, or something like that.

[Fittster]

Taaaaang said:

Fittster said:

Digga said:

Chromegrill said:

The underpass is quite easy to lose a sense of speed in as there is a long downwards slope either side...

The Daily Mail map shows the accident site as opposite the mosque, which is nonsense as the underpass is nowhere near the mosque, the site of the accident is near the Fiveways end of the underpass 500m to the west. If a car was barrelling along from Fiveways and crossed the central reservation on entering the underpass where there's a bit of a bend, it could easily land on the opposite side, where the badly wrecked cars were lying.

Agree with the above, I too figured the car came into the underpass in the downhill direction, from Fiveways. You could easily carry a lot of speed that way; far, far too much for the road.

I'd spoken with a mate a few times about driving in the city. In our shared experience of driving there for decades, the standard of driving, in general, in Birmingham has got far worse - more lawless, wreckless, random and inconsiderate - over the last five or ten years.

RIP to those lost who were not instrumental in the incident.

If you have come from Fiveways, there's a good chance you've been stopped at the lights by the Fiveways railway station and there used to be a speed camera there as well.

It's quite a way from the underpass still.

The three lanes seem to encourage fast starts as it's a clear view downhill and if you have been caught there there's usually not much traffic in front (nobody turns left crossing that road, to go left there are better options). I've been guilty of doing too much speed on this stretch myself. It's really easy to just cruise up to 60 without it seeming too fast. Just like the Birchfield flyover, 60/70 happens all day every day.

The big problem going downhill from those lights is the shocking lane discipline and late manoeuvres of those wishing to go to the junction by McDonalds rather than stay straight and under.

That speed camera hasn't worked for years.

So on a controversial note, is it time to switch the camera back on?

[Mothersruin]

Digga said:

meant more from that direction than a clear run down from 5ways. Road is 40mph and after the camera - assuming both that it is working or that the drivers cared anyway - you could easily add more speed into the underpass.

As for people commenting about the standard of driving in Birmingham, back in the early 90s when I was doing 20 or 30 odd thousand miles per year, a fair bit, from time to time, was in and around the city. My customers were in all the glamorous bits; Saltley, Bordesley Green, Small Heath, West Brom', Sandwell etc. etc. so you saw all sides of the place. IMHO even at that time, the ethnicity of the city was extremely diverse and I think it apt that others identify a sub-set of the population being responsible for the decline in standards, because the present ethnic mix is pretty much as it was before.

According to the 2011 census, one Birmingham 'group' had increased by 67% from 2001. Wiki figures so happy to be corrected.

[Rude-boy]

To be honest the standard of driving over the entire country is far, far worse than it has ever been these days.

It has nothing to do with skin colour or the like and everything to do with road safety being dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. The more you treat people like children who don't know anything and must be told what to do all the time the more those people become reliant upon being told what to do so that once they have to make a split second decision they have nothing to fall back upon, no one to tell them what to do and as a result often make bad choices.

Too long a subject and not the right topic to take it too far but whilst i am far from the 'put a 6 inch spike in the centre of the steering wheel' i am sure the the 'safer' people have tried to make things the more novel and interesting new ways people find of trying to negate those attempts.

[Digga]

Mothersruin said:

Digga said:

meant more from that direction than a clear run down from 5ways. Road is 40mph and after the camera - assuming both that it is working or that the drivers cared anyway - you could easily add more speed into the underpass.

As for people commenting about the standard of driving in Birmingham, back in the early 90s when I was doing 20 or 30 odd thousand miles per year, a fair bit, from time to time, was in and around the city. My customers were in all the glamorous bits; Saltley, Bordesley Green, Small Heath, West Brom', Sandwell etc. etc. so you saw all sides of the place. IMHO even at that time, the ethnicity of the city was extremely diverse and I think it apt that others identify a sub-set of the population being responsible for the decline in standards, because the present ethnic mix is pretty much as it was before.

According to the 2011 census, one Birmingham 'group' had increased by 67% from 2001. Wiki figures so happy to be corrected.

Yes, but there were still mosques all over the place in the early 90s, including the big one just down the road from this tragedy. Many of the areas being populated by the new immigrants were those which had been home to the previous century's immigrants; the Irish, (hence why I was in those areas).

I suppose the point I am making is that the ethnic mix is perhaps less relevant than the actual individual backgrounds.

[J4CKO]

This just seems like a fairly heavily laden car, four adult males would weigh between what, 300 to 400 kilos ? on a wet road, even if the road wasn't icy it would be well below the 8c we are told summer tyres work best above. So that car potentially weighed nigh on two tonnes and was, based on the destruction being driven at high speed.

How it would react with just the driver is different to what it does fully laden, especially when there is an element of showing off.

I suppose with Asian folk, the majority arent drinkers based on faith, so they are able to drive when their peers from other groups are in pubs and clubs and have to rely on public transport and taxis to get about after 7pm, sweeping generalisation but you do see them charging up and down Deansgate in Manchester at night, some very fancy cars.

People are all basically the same, the differences are based on culture, upbringing, aspirations, financial situation, education etc. Traits emerge, we all have them and it is separating what is just fear of the unknown, hatred etc from they actual traits, if it was a quaint quirk of say having a specific style or being exemplary drivers, nobody would care, but it is having some very very fast cars and driving them inappropriately, showing off in urban settings, and people are dying because of it.

[Shilvers]

Is there any evidence as to which way the Audi was travelling?

I suppose all will be come clear very soon. There's bound to be plenty of witnesses and cameras in that location.

I've still got a wad of cash on the Audi going far too quickly for the road/conditions and wiping out some innocents

Once again, the road is an easy drive at 40. Thousands do it everyday with no issue. It would be very easy to get into trouble at higher speeds (part of that road did host the Birmingham Super Prix many moons ago, so it could be very tempting to put your foot down)