Laurence Fox - New Political Party
Discussion
A Winner Is You said:
Likely not, but someone somewhere decided it was needed.
Also, Sainsburys is part owned by Qatari Holdings, from the country that works African migrant workers to death and keeps them as virtual slaves. But no one ever takes a knee for them.
I think it is far more likely their "Diversity Officer" thought it would be a good idea. I've worked for a company like this. In my experience, none of the normal workers want safe spaces, minority only networks and so on. People just want to be treated equally and fairly.Also, Sainsburys is part owned by Qatari Holdings, from the country that works African migrant workers to death and keeps them as virtual slaves. But no one ever takes a knee for them.
FiF said:
Noticed that Matt Goodwin had a well aimed poke at the Sainsbury's CEO, with the below tweet, though to be fair they, Sainsbury's were pulling these sort of stunts before the present incumbent took his seat. Eg premium for working Bank Holidays went, breaks reduced; recall when my Mrs was there they pulled her premium time for required working (ie compulsory shift) on Christmas Day as they were rota pharmacy. So no sympathy for Sainsbo's here tbh.
.
Yep.
Matt Goodwin said:
Two years ago, you tried to cut paid breaks for workers, their Sunday premium & bonuses while paying your CEO £4 million, who also happened to be a member of the "Invicta" tax avoidance scheme. Your current CEO is paid 131 times the pay of an average worker.
Woke capitalism.
Fair commentWoke capitalism.
The bigger issue is how these companies try and hide their mistreatment of their workers by prattling on about how "right on" they are.
Well I am sure they have a number of BAME employees who would appreciate better pay and conditions not empty virtue signalling.
JagLover said:
FiF said:
Noticed that Matt Goodwin had a well aimed poke at the Sainsbury's CEO, with the below tweet, though to be fair they, Sainsbury's were pulling these sort of stunts before the present incumbent took his seat. Eg premium for working Bank Holidays went, breaks reduced; recall when my Mrs was there they pulled her premium time for required working (ie compulsory shift) on Christmas Day as they were rota pharmacy. So no sympathy for Sainsbo's here tbh.
.
Yep.
Matt Goodwin said:
Two years ago, you tried to cut paid breaks for workers, their Sunday premium & bonuses while paying your CEO £4 million, who also happened to be a member of the "Invicta" tax avoidance scheme. Your current CEO is paid 131 times the pay of an average worker.
Woke capitalism.
Fair commentWoke capitalism.
The bigger issue is how these companies try and hide their mistreatment of their workers by prattling on about how "right on" they are.
Well I am sure they have a number of BAME employees who would appreciate better pay and conditions not empty virtue signalling.
I can't see it.
It does seem they have questionable, or inconsistent, ethics.
I'd love the question of the pay inequality within their company to explode and for them to try to face up to the real issues that they themselves may be guilty of creating, perpetuating or exacerbating.
Interesting thread on who is reportedly advising and backing Fox in his new venture
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/131095349479962...
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/131095349479962...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The background issue that Goodwin is pushing is that it's suggested this sort of virtue signalling, often on the back of hearing or learning about white privilege, makes people, particularly social liberals, less sympathetic to poor white people vs poor BAME people, and they attribute the poverty of the poor white simply down to them failing to take advantage of their racial privilege, whereas it's a lot more complicated than that. As said above, folks don't want virtue signalling but treating equally, fairly and with respect.How often do we hear, should have made better life choices, worked harder at school, and other shonky putdowns even on PH.
Other day we were looking at the very low% of white males in receipt of free school meals who went to uni, only just above % from traveller community. Why? (Full disclosure, first in family to go to uni, probably even in extended family, certainly first above bachelor level, single parent family, fsm, clothing vouchers, ex grammar school boy here, didn't feel privileged, though accept never in receipt of racial discrimination at least in UK, but have suffered elsewhere. )
Link : Complex intersections of race and class: among social liberals, learning about White privilege reduces sympathy, increases blame, and decreases external attributions for White people struggling with poverty. - PsycNET
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fx...
minimoog said:
Interesting thread on who is reportedly advising and backing Fox in his new venture
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/131095349479962...
It might be. But to be honest, as a 55 year old IT numpty who isn't really interested in social media and likes straightfoward news sites, it just looks like the sort of fake-news, advocacy blog (I heard that one another thread but don't really know what it is) place where anyone can get a load of gumpf that supports their world view and/or makes them angry. Sorry about that.https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/131095349479962...
FiF said:
The background issue that Goodwin is pushing is that it's suggested this sort of virtue signalling, often on the back of hearing or learning about white privilege, makes people, particularly social liberals, less sympathetic to poor white people vs poor BAME people, and they attribute the poverty of the poor white simply down to them failing to take advantage of their racial privilege, whereas it's a lot more complicated than that. As said above, folks don't want virtue signalling but treating equally, fairly and with respect.
Link : Complex intersections of race and class: among social liberals, learning about White privilege reduces sympathy, increases blame, and decreases external attributions for White people struggling with poverty. - PsycNET
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fx...
I like Goodwin's stuff. He's one of the few academics out there, along with the Blavatnik School's Tom Simpson, who's prepared to say the 'unsayable'Link : Complex intersections of race and class: among social liberals, learning about White privilege reduces sympathy, increases blame, and decreases external attributions for White people struggling with poverty. - PsycNET
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fx...
And that link is interesting. Not due to its findings, which seem fundamentally sound, but due to the fact that i'm genuinely surprised, in the present climate, that it got through peer review/was accepted for publication
As a mixed race person(English/Pole on my mothers side, Persian/Arabian on my fathers side) I find the idea of white privilege to be flawed, ditto the idea of unconscious bias(the use of which in a corporate setting has been derided by two of the original creators of the test)
Both seem to me to be no different than original sin in Catholicism, at least in the way they are used by the woke types.
I'm inclined to believe the assertion that pushing these ideas means people have less sympathy for unsuccessful white working class folk, and I also have concerns over and above that.
If people are being trained that they're unconsciously biased or have white privelege, you're basically saying you're racist but you don't know it. Protesting against the idea is oft responded to as "oh that's your racism talking". It becomes an inescapable kafka trap to which white people must submit lest they be called racist.
To me, this does a number of unwanted things
1. It removes me of my agency to assert that I know someone not to be a racist, as I'm told that all white folk are a bit racist underneath it all so I can't possibly use my own experience to detect when they are.
2. It makes everyone view everything through the lens of race, placing less of a focus on my character and my merits and forcing people to consider my race first. Flies in the face of Dr King there eh?
3. If you poke a majority for long enough, telling them they must be racist simply because of an inescapable genetic trait, a significant section of that group may embrace it and just think "they think I'm racist anyway, so what's to lose?"
4. It empowers less scrupulous non-whites to use the concepts to get ahead.
I mean, take this, from the Smithsonian of all places
It's whiteness to rely on science
It's whiteness to have two parents
It's whiteness to be punctual
It's whiteness to believe that hard work is necessary
It's whiteness to believe in property law
It's whiteness to plan for the future
I mean, this is all just patently ridiculous nonsense that's getting funding and support in the media.
Perhaps its easier for me to say as I have a foot in both Western culture(founded upon JudeoChristian/Greek/Enlightnment values) and a foot in Arabian gulf culture(founded upon Islam), but I know which I'd rather became the global culture, and it ain't the Arab culture I tell you that for nothing.
I mean lets ignore the plight of the Irish under the English, the Poles under the Germans and Russian, the Slavs under the Russians etc etc, as if white people are some homogenous mono-culture who only oppress and have never been oppressed.
So overall, I'm unsurprised to see something like the topic of this thread arise in response to the cultural moves towards the demonisation of western enlightenment culture which is being described as "whiteness", and I hope that the push back keeps the nonsense at bay. It needs a voice.
Both seem to me to be no different than original sin in Catholicism, at least in the way they are used by the woke types.
I'm inclined to believe the assertion that pushing these ideas means people have less sympathy for unsuccessful white working class folk, and I also have concerns over and above that.
If people are being trained that they're unconsciously biased or have white privelege, you're basically saying you're racist but you don't know it. Protesting against the idea is oft responded to as "oh that's your racism talking". It becomes an inescapable kafka trap to which white people must submit lest they be called racist.
To me, this does a number of unwanted things
1. It removes me of my agency to assert that I know someone not to be a racist, as I'm told that all white folk are a bit racist underneath it all so I can't possibly use my own experience to detect when they are.
2. It makes everyone view everything through the lens of race, placing less of a focus on my character and my merits and forcing people to consider my race first. Flies in the face of Dr King there eh?
3. If you poke a majority for long enough, telling them they must be racist simply because of an inescapable genetic trait, a significant section of that group may embrace it and just think "they think I'm racist anyway, so what's to lose?"
4. It empowers less scrupulous non-whites to use the concepts to get ahead.
I mean, take this, from the Smithsonian of all places
It's whiteness to rely on science
It's whiteness to have two parents
It's whiteness to be punctual
It's whiteness to believe that hard work is necessary
It's whiteness to believe in property law
It's whiteness to plan for the future
I mean, this is all just patently ridiculous nonsense that's getting funding and support in the media.
Perhaps its easier for me to say as I have a foot in both Western culture(founded upon JudeoChristian/Greek/Enlightnment values) and a foot in Arabian gulf culture(founded upon Islam), but I know which I'd rather became the global culture, and it ain't the Arab culture I tell you that for nothing.
I mean lets ignore the plight of the Irish under the English, the Poles under the Germans and Russian, the Slavs under the Russians etc etc, as if white people are some homogenous mono-culture who only oppress and have never been oppressed.
So overall, I'm unsurprised to see something like the topic of this thread arise in response to the cultural moves towards the demonisation of western enlightenment culture which is being described as "whiteness", and I hope that the push back keeps the nonsense at bay. It needs a voice.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 5th October 16:50
Sam.M said:
As a mixed race person(English/Pole on my mothers side, Persian/Arabian on my fathers side) I find the idea of white privilege to be flawed, ditto the idea of unconscious bias(the use of which in a corporate setting has been derided by two of the original creators of the test)
Both seem to me to be no different than original sin in Catholicism, at least in the way they are used by the woke types.
I'm inclined to believe the assertion that pushing these ideas means people have less sympathy for unsuccessful white working class folk, and I also have concerns over and above that.
If people are being trained that they're unconsciously biased or have white privelege, you're basically saying you're racist but you don't know it. Protesting against the idea is oft responded to as "oh that's your racism talking". It becomes an inescapable kafka trap to which white people must submit lest they be called racist.
To me, this does a number of unwanted things
1. It removes me of my agency to assert that I know someone not to be a racist, as I'm told that all white folk are a bit racist underneath it all so I can't possibly use my own experience to detect when they are.
2. It makes everyone view everything through the lens of race, placing less of a focus on my character and my merits and forcing people to consider my race first. Flies in the face of Dr King there eh?
3. If you poke a majority for long enough, telling them they must be racist simply because of an inescapable genetic trait, a significant section of that group may embrace it and just think "they think I'm racist anyway, so what's to lose?"
4. It empowers less scrupulous non-whites to use the concepts to get ahead.
I mean, take this, from the Smithsonian of all places
It's whiteness to rely on science
It's whiteness to have two parents
It's whiteness to be punctual
It's whiteness to believe that hard work is necessary
It's whiteness to believe in property law
It's whiteness to plan for the future
I mean, this is all just patently ridiculous nonsense that's getting funding and support in the media.
Perhaps its easier for me to say as I have a foot in both Western culture(founded upon JudeoChristian/Greek/Enlightnment values) and a foot in Arabian gulf culture(founded upon Islam), but I know which I'd rather became the global culture, and it ain't the Arab culture I tell you that for nothing.
I mean lets ignore the plight of the Irish under the English, the Poles under the Germans and Russian, the Slavs under the Russians etc etc, as if white people are some homogenous mono-culture who only oppress and have never been oppressed.
So overall, I'm unsurprised to see something like the topic of this thread arise in response to the cultural moves towards the demonisation of western enlightenment culture which is being described as "whiteness", and I hope that the push back keeps the nonsense at bay. It needs a voice.
That Smithsonian infographic is simultaneously hilarious and racist. Thanks for posting.Both seem to me to be no different than original sin in Catholicism, at least in the way they are used by the woke types.
I'm inclined to believe the assertion that pushing these ideas means people have less sympathy for unsuccessful white working class folk, and I also have concerns over and above that.
If people are being trained that they're unconsciously biased or have white privelege, you're basically saying you're racist but you don't know it. Protesting against the idea is oft responded to as "oh that's your racism talking". It becomes an inescapable kafka trap to which white people must submit lest they be called racist.
To me, this does a number of unwanted things
1. It removes me of my agency to assert that I know someone not to be a racist, as I'm told that all white folk are a bit racist underneath it all so I can't possibly use my own experience to detect when they are.
2. It makes everyone view everything through the lens of race, placing less of a focus on my character and my merits and forcing people to consider my race first. Flies in the face of Dr King there eh?
3. If you poke a majority for long enough, telling them they must be racist simply because of an inescapable genetic trait, a significant section of that group may embrace it and just think "they think I'm racist anyway, so what's to lose?"
4. It empowers less scrupulous non-whites to use the concepts to get ahead.
I mean, take this, from the Smithsonian of all places
It's whiteness to rely on science
It's whiteness to have two parents
It's whiteness to be punctual
It's whiteness to believe that hard work is necessary
It's whiteness to believe in property law
It's whiteness to plan for the future
I mean, this is all just patently ridiculous nonsense that's getting funding and support in the media.
Perhaps its easier for me to say as I have a foot in both Western culture(founded upon JudeoChristian/Greek/Enlightnment values) and a foot in Arabian gulf culture(founded upon Islam), but I know which I'd rather became the global culture, and it ain't the Arab culture I tell you that for nothing.
I mean lets ignore the plight of the Irish under the English, the Poles under the Germans and Russian, the Slavs under the Russians etc etc, as if white people are some homogenous mono-culture who only oppress and have never been oppressed.
So overall, I'm unsurprised to see something like the topic of this thread arise in response to the cultural moves towards the demonisation of western enlightenment culture which is being described as "whiteness", and I hope that the push back keeps the nonsense at bay. It needs a voice.
Edited by Sam.M on Monday 5th October 16:50
FiF said:
The background issue that Goodwin is pushing is that it's suggested this sort of virtue signalling, often on the back of hearing or learning about white privilege, makes people, particularly social liberals, less sympathetic to poor white people vs poor BAME people, and they attribute the poverty of the poor white simply down to them failing to take advantage of their racial privilege, whereas it's a lot more complicated than that. As said above, folks don't want virtue signalling but treating equally, fairly and with respect.
How often do we hear, should have made better life choices, worked harder at school, and other shonky putdowns even on PH.
Other day we were looking at the very low% of white males in receipt of free school meals who went to uni, only just above % from traveller community. Why? (Full disclosure, first in family to go to uni, probably even in extended family, certainly first above bachelor level, single parent family, fsm, clothing vouchers, ex grammar school boy here, didn't feel privileged, though accept never in receipt of racial discrimination at least in UK, but have suffered elsewhere. )
Link : Complex intersections of race and class: among social liberals, learning about White privilege reduces sympathy, increases blame, and decreases external attributions for White people struggling with poverty. - PsycNET
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fx...
It is one of the reasons why we are seeing a political realignment, as many "left wing" politicians aren't actually advocating traditional centre left politics. Instead it is all identity politics and cultural Marxism. Why many wealthy are drawn to such causes which allows them to play at radicalism while keeping their money. How often do we hear, should have made better life choices, worked harder at school, and other shonky putdowns even on PH.
Other day we were looking at the very low% of white males in receipt of free school meals who went to uni, only just above % from traveller community. Why? (Full disclosure, first in family to go to uni, probably even in extended family, certainly first above bachelor level, single parent family, fsm, clothing vouchers, ex grammar school boy here, didn't feel privileged, though accept never in receipt of racial discrimination at least in UK, but have suffered elsewhere. )
Link : Complex intersections of race and class: among social liberals, learning about White privilege reduces sympathy, increases blame, and decreases external attributions for White people struggling with poverty. - PsycNET
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fx...
They have little interest in improving the lot of the white working class and the voters have been steadily picking up on that fact.
Sam.M said:
If people are being trained that they're unconsciously biased or have white privelege, you're basically saying you're racist but you don't know it.
I don't know where you did your unconscious bias training, but my takeaway definitely wasn't that it means you're racist.The idea is that people generally like to surround themselves with folks similar to themselves. So for me, that would be middle aged white men. The reasons includes preference for the familiar and thinking I'm more likely to have something in common with someone like myself.
However, particularly in a business setting, companies are trying to encourage more diverse teams across age, gender, race and ethnicity. The theory is that people from different backgrounds will bring a variety of experiences and viewpoints to a scenario and will therefore be more likely to come up with innovative ideas.
Nothing to do with racism at all.
CzechItOut said:
I don't know where you did your unconscious bias training, but my takeaway definitely wasn't that it means you're racist.
The idea is that people generally like to surround themselves with folks similar to themselves. So for me, that would be middle aged white men. The reasons includes preference for the familiar and thinking I'm more likely to have something in common with someone like myself.
However, particularly in a business setting, companies are trying to encourage more diverse teams across age, gender, race and ethnicity. The theory is that people from different backgrounds will bring a variety of experiences and viewpoints to a scenario and will therefore be more likely to come up with innovative ideas.
Nothing to do with racism at all.
Quite.The idea is that people generally like to surround themselves with folks similar to themselves. So for me, that would be middle aged white men. The reasons includes preference for the familiar and thinking I'm more likely to have something in common with someone like myself.
However, particularly in a business setting, companies are trying to encourage more diverse teams across age, gender, race and ethnicity. The theory is that people from different backgrounds will bring a variety of experiences and viewpoints to a scenario and will therefore be more likely to come up with innovative ideas.
Nothing to do with racism at all.
I suspect most people scoffing at your training though and dismissing it all as PC gone mad woke nonsense are the ones who would need it the most.
El stovey said:
Quite.
I suspect most people scoffing at your training though and dismissing it all as PC gone mad woke nonsense are the ones who would need it the most.
I’m a total racist me, and consciously biased against all who don’t match my unique intersectional make up. I suspect most people scoffing at your training though and dismissing it all as PC gone mad woke nonsense are the ones who would need it the most.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 5th October 18:27
CzechItOut said:
I don't know where you did your unconscious bias training, but my takeaway definitely wasn't that it means you're racist.
The idea is that people generally like to surround themselves with folks similar to themselves. So for me, that would be middle aged white men. The reasons includes preference for the familiar and thinking I'm more likely to have something in common with someone like myself.
However, particularly in a business setting, companies are trying to encourage more diverse teams across age, gender, race and ethnicity. The theory is that people from different backgrounds will bring a variety of experiences and viewpoints to a scenario and will therefore be more likely to come up with innovative ideas.
Nothing to do with racism at all.
It's something I've noticed quite a bit on here.The idea is that people generally like to surround themselves with folks similar to themselves. So for me, that would be middle aged white men. The reasons includes preference for the familiar and thinking I'm more likely to have something in common with someone like myself.
However, particularly in a business setting, companies are trying to encourage more diverse teams across age, gender, race and ethnicity. The theory is that people from different backgrounds will bring a variety of experiences and viewpoints to a scenario and will therefore be more likely to come up with innovative ideas.
Nothing to do with racism at all.
Any mention of things like unconscious bias training or that catnip word "privilege" and some people seem to from 0-100 and think they're being called racist and all kinds of things.
I think I see it as simply recognising that there are things you may not know you don't know and through no conscious fault of your own it means you have some built in biases.
I'm probably a little cynical how a half day course can fix that but I'll find out early next year.
Lots of employers seem to be going down those lines of training and awareness.
CzechItOut said:
I don't know where you did your unconscious bias training, but my takeaway definitely wasn't that it means you're racist.
The idea is that people generally like to surround themselves with folks similar to themselves. So for me, that would be middle aged white men. The reasons includes preference for the familiar and thinking I'm more likely to have something in common with someone like myself.
So not unconciously racist, but also unconciously sexist. You utter pig. The idea is that people generally like to surround themselves with folks similar to themselves. So for me, that would be middle aged white men. The reasons includes preference for the familiar and thinking I'm more likely to have something in common with someone like myself.
CzechItOut said:
However, particularly in a business setting, companies are trying to encourage more diverse teams across age, gender, race and ethnicity. The theory is that people from different backgrounds will bring a variety of experiences and viewpoints to a scenario and will therefore be more likely to come up with innovative ideas.
Nothing to do with racism at all.
I'm all for diversity my friend, but as a hiring manager I want the best candidates that come across my desk based on their merits, using any other metric in my hiring would be illegal.Nothing to do with racism at all.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: It's something I've noticed quite a bit on here.
Any mention of things like unconscious bias training or that catnip word "privilege" and some people seem to from 0-100 and think they're being called racist and all kinds of things.
I think I see it as simply recognising that there are things you may not know you don't know and through no conscious fault of your own it means you have some built in biases.
I'm probably a little cynical how a half day course can fix that but I'll find out early next year.
Lots of employers seem to be going down those lines of training and awareness.
In my case it's more a deep unease at the modern focus on race, a focus that might actually foment a societal situation where non-whites such as myself might be made more unsafe by constantly goading the majority about their "hidden racism"Any mention of things like unconscious bias training or that catnip word "privilege" and some people seem to from 0-100 and think they're being called racist and all kinds of things.
I think I see it as simply recognising that there are things you may not know you don't know and through no conscious fault of your own it means you have some built in biases.
I'm probably a little cynical how a half day course can fix that but I'll find out early next year.
Lots of employers seem to be going down those lines of training and awareness.
But hey ho, easier for most folk to toe the line and submit, lest they be called racist for questioning things.
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