First transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

[Northernboy]

NickCQ said:

Define "dangly bits". 1-2% of babies are born with some kind of intersex condition. There's also such a thing as an "XX male".
Neither sex nor gender are binary.

That’s simply not true. Sex is binary, and DSDs do not change this. You are conflating secondary sexual characteristics with biological sex, which isn’t how it works.

XX male is caused by the SRY being transposed onto an X chromosome. Once it’s there (and functional) it triggers male development. The person born with this condition is a male, as you note.

[Northernboy]

NickCQ said:

There is nuance - DSDs have historically been "corrected" or "assigned" as one or the other, but I don't see how you can say it's 100% obvious what sex someone is if they have ambiguous dangly bits and/or chromosomes that don't match the dangly bits.

Sex is determined by the developmental path followed in-utero. You either proceed down the oath to support large gametes, or to support small ones. Never both, and never neither.

It is possible in vanishingly small numbers of cases that a DSD is so severe that it’s not possible to determine which path was followed, but in 99.98% of live DSD births you can.

Again, this is nothing to do with Trans issues, trans women are not women with DSDs, they have a standard karyotype but make the choice to live as women.

DSDs do not provide any evidence for the idea that you can be born in the wrong body or be the wrong sex.

[NickCQ]

Northernboy said:

DSDs do not provide any evidence for the idea that you can be born in the wrong body or be the wrong sex.

I agree that the conflation is unhelpful, the point I was making is that "check the dangly bits" is a ridiculous over-simplification of the issue.

[Northernboy]

chrispmartha said:

And the flip side is a lot of Trans people are being badly treated - trans hate crime is on the rise.

The statistics suggest otherwise. The problem of course that misgendering is now viewed as “actual violence” by trans activists, while lamping a real woman in response isn’t.

What data there is (and it isn’t great) suggests that trans women are one of the safest demographics in the UK, and are more likely to be murderers than to be murdered.

[chrispmartha]

Northernboy said:

chrispmartha said:

Not that simple of a solution though.

What about someone like Caster Semenya?

She was apparently brought up as a male, had a male puberty, and has testicles.

She has a condition that caused ambiguous secondary sexual characteristics, but that’s not the determining factor here.

Have a look at this interview where she talks about her childhood;

https://youtu.be/Hvg50P4FwTk

There’s speculation that she’s married a woman and fathered (biologically) a child.

Of course, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with Trans, she’s not trans, she is a person with a DSD.

Brought up as a male? I thought she has said the opposite, and yes she may have ‘internal testicles’ (so not dangly bits’ as someone rather crudely put.

And it isn’t to do with Trans because she isn’t trans but yet has been banned from competition.

[Northernboy]

chrispmartha said:

Brought up as a male? I thought she has said the opposite, and yes she may have ‘internal testicles’ (so not dangly bits’ as someone rather crudely put.

And it isn’t to do with Trans because she isn’t trans but yet has been banned from competition.

Have a look at the interview. There’s been some work done on obfuscating her last since she came to prominence, but the suggestion is that before this she was raised as male.

[Jules Sunley]

Iwantafusca said:

NickCQ said:

Jules Sunley said:

Simple solution on Olympic application paperwork - 'Were you born with dangly bits' - Yes equals male competitor, No equals female competitor. Don't care what you have or haven't got now or what you 'identify as'.

Define "dangly bits". 1-2% of babies are born with some kind of intersex condition. There's also such a thing as an "XX male".
Neither sex nor gender are binary.

DSD ( disorders of sex development)affected people are still either male or female.

Sex is 100% binary. Gender is irrelevant and meaningless in reality. Unless you have a tendency for blue hair.

+1

NickCQ for 1-2% I'd say it is binary with 'a tiny margin' where there is a lack of clarity.

This whole thread is longer than it needs to be - if you're born a bloke (whether that be 48/49/50% odds) then you can't compete in sport as a woman no matter what intervention changes you make during your lifetime.

[chrispmartha]

Northernboy said:

chrispmartha said:

Brought up as a male? I thought she has said the opposite, and yes she may have ‘internal testicles’ (so not dangly bits’ as someone rather crudely put.

And it isn’t to do with Trans because she isn’t trans but yet has been banned from competition.

Have a look at the interview. There’s been some work done on obfuscating her last since she came to prominence, but the suggestion is that before this she was raised as male.

Ive watched it and nowhere does she say she was brought up as a male.

Unfortunately i read some of the comments as well.

[chrispmartha]

Jules Sunley said:

This whole thread is longer than it needs to be - if you're born a bloke (whether that be 48/49/50% odds) then you can't compete in sport as a woman no matter what intervention changes you make during your lifetime.

This thread is as long as it is because your statement is untrue.

[Jules Sunley]

chrispmartha said:

Jules Sunley said:

This whole thread is longer than it needs to be - if you're born a bloke (whether that be 48/49/50% odds) then you can't compete in sport as a woman no matter what intervention changes you make during your lifetime.

This thread is as long as it is because your statement is untrue.

Yawn

[Northernboy]

chrispmartha said:

Ive watched it and nowhere does she say she was brought up as a male.

Unfortunately i read some of the comments as well.

She talks about being only with boys, and not having much time for girls, which is certainly suggestive of that, and fits well with the idea that she’s XY and has testicles.

[chrispmartha]

Northernboy said:

chrispmartha said:

Ive watched it and nowhere does she say she was brought up as a male.

Unfortunately i read some of the comments as well.

She talks about being only with boys, and not having much time for girls, which is certainly suggestive of that, and fits well with the idea that she’s XY and has testicles.

Thats all just your supposition then not fact in anyway.

[chrispmartha]

Jules Sunley said:

chrispmartha said:

Jules Sunley said:

This whole thread is longer than it needs to be - if you're born a bloke (whether that be 48/49/50% odds) then you can't compete in sport as a woman no matter what intervention changes you make during your lifetime.

This thread is as long as it is because your statement is untrue.

Yawn

Yawn all you want, the fact your statement is untrue is the very point of the thread.

[Gecko1978]

chrispmartha said:

You sure about that Zuby Music story?

Are you talking about the rapper (hes not a powerlifter)that posted a video of him weight lifting claiming that he’d broken the record, does he actually hold the record?

Edited by chrispmartha on Monday 21st June 13:33

He doesn't but it was to point out if self ID was a thing we all accepted then he could quite rightly break some record's at the gym. An who are we to say Zuby was not female....we all know it was a piss take but then so if a former cis male power lifter becoming a trans female powerlifter. Simple we have para Olympics so we can have a trans one too.

[chrispmartha]

Gecko1978 said:

chrispmartha said:

You sure about that Zuby Music story?

Are you talking about the rapper (hes not a powerlifter)that posted a video of him weight lifting claiming that he’d broken the record, does he actually hold the record?

Edited by chrispmartha on Monday 21st June 13:33

He doesn't but it was to point out if self ID was a thing we all accepted then he could quite rightly break some record's at the gym. An who are we to say Zuby was not female....we all know it was a piss take but then so if a former cis male power lifter becoming a trans female powerlifter. Simple we have para Olympics so we can have a trans one too.

Northernboy didn’t seem to know it was a pisstake

[rover 623gsi]

8.4L 154 said:

Northernboy said:

Gender reassignment is protected, gender isn’t.

It means that you can’t discriminate against someone who’s undergone or us undergoing a proper gender reassignment program of drugs and surgery.

This protection was included when it was thought to apply to a handful of people who had medically transitioned; it says nothing about “gender identity” or about gender itself being a protected characteristic.

As we’ve seen in the news recently, Stonewall and others have been trying their best to pretend that the act protects gender, and doesn’t protect sex, but they’ve been caught out in their lies.

Except that is not actually true.

Equality act said:

A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

The bit in bold is a broad brush which can and does include just presentation, and that is before you get into the protections afforded in the EA to anyone associated with any of the protected characteristics or the protection afforded in irrelevance to if the person actually holds the PC.

There is case law confirming that non binary people are covered by the GR PC in the EA and likewise there are hansard records confirming the inclusion of gender identity was intended in the legislation.

As for stonewall law, you say they have been caught out in lies but their guidance reflects that of the EHRC who recently successfully defended their understanding of the law in the case of EHRC vs AEA. The judges remarks " AEA's interpretation of the law is absurd" So stonewall have not been caught out in any lies, AEA and gender critical activists have.

The ridiculousness of your argument that gender identity is not covered in the gender reassignment protected characteristic amount to the equivalent claim that gay people are not protected by the EA because the protected characteristic is "sexual orientation". Its word semantics and utterly pointless.

It is very clear in EA that gender reassignment is the protected characteristic and not gender or gender identity. It is definitely not semantics and is actually a very important distinction.

[Gecko1978]

768 said:

ZedLeg said:

This case is obviously awful but that person is clearly an outlier, a tiny minority in a tiny minority.

A bit like Olympic athletes then.

A bit like not letting trans women compete with cis women, I would also separate trans women from cis women in prison. There frankly can't be many trans men or women in prison at all so a special unit could exist. For Karen white the male to female sex offender I would advocate separation come in the form of a bullet he/she is an outlier and I suspect not truky trans but just an evil sex offender.

[chrispmartha]

rover 623gsi said:

It is very clear in EA that gender reassignment is the protected characteristic and not gender or gender identity. It is definitely not semantics and is actually a very important distinction.

And Gender reassignment doesn’t = surgery that’s an important distinction

[anonymous-user]

NickCQ said:

Iwantafusca said:

DSD (disorders of sex development)affected people are still either male or female. Sex is 100% binary.

There is nuance - DSDs have historically been "corrected" or "assigned" as one or the other, but I don't see how you can say it's 100% obvious what sex someone is if they have ambiguous dangly bits and/or chromosomes that don't match the dangly bits.

I didn’t say it’s 100% obvious what someone’s sex is. I said sex is 100% binary , there are on;y 2 sexes.

[Newc]

chrispmartha said:

Northernboy said:

Newc said:

Haven't got time today to pitch in on every post but just wanted to say you are bang on with everything you have said.

Thanks.

I do feel quite strongly about this. A lot of women are getting very badly treated, and not much is being done about it.

And the flip side is a lot of Trans people are being badly treated - trans hate crime is on the rise.

Nonsense. The topic of trans people has suddenly blown up because a bunch of noisy activists have decided to make it a thing, for reasons which aren't entirely clear but are probably rooted somewhere in their continued access to money and funding.