Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 3)
Discussion
MrBogSmith said:
C19 came at a good time to distract from Brexit.
The gammon will make any excuse that it's nothing to do with Brexit.
Naturally it's multi-faceted, but to deny the issues we're having are nothing to do with it is disingenuous.
Brexit has just shone the light on the problem that already existed and which hadn't been addressed. Even the bloody Guardian acknowledges this! The gammon will make any excuse that it's nothing to do with Brexit.
Naturally it's multi-faceted, but to deny the issues we're having are nothing to do with it is disingenuous.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep...
The particularly interesting fact in that article for me is about the labour being drawn from increasingly further east. Not altogether surprising really though.
If it means we finally start addressing labour conditions in certain sectors maybe it's not such a bad thing to put up with a bit of pain now. In reality it should have been addressed years ago, as the industry has been saying. I have my doubts personally as to whether the necessary changes will be made though.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Who knows I'm just going off what the FT say the trolley is doing.
Key for me is if they go this route, they've got to adopt the Swiss model.Visa only if you can show you're not undercutting what a British driver would currently expect for the same job.
We cannot continue down the path of screwing our citizens in order to import cheap labour who'll accept appalling conditions.
Sway said:
Key for me is if they go this route, they've got to adopt the Swiss model.
Visa only if you can show you're not undercutting what a British driver would currently expect for the same job.
We cannot continue down the path of screwing our citizens in order to import cheap labour who'll accept appalling conditions.
Key for me in the short term is that people don't have to worry about being able to buy fuel to get to work or food to eat and schools don't have food shortages.Visa only if you can show you're not undercutting what a British driver would currently expect for the same job.
We cannot continue down the path of screwing our citizens in order to import cheap labour who'll accept appalling conditions.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Sway said:
Key for me is if they go this route, they've got to adopt the Swiss model.
Visa only if you can show you're not undercutting what a British driver would currently expect for the same job.
We cannot continue down the path of screwing our citizens in order to import cheap labour who'll accept appalling conditions.
Key for me in the short term is that people don't have to worry about being able to buy fuel to get to work or food to eat and schools don't have food shortages.Visa only if you can show you're not undercutting what a British driver would currently expect for the same job.
We cannot continue down the path of screwing our citizens in order to import cheap labour who'll accept appalling conditions.
To provide that, there's the Army in times of national emergency.
However, there's a reason why the army aren't getting involved - because the shortages are caused by fearmongering (as per fuel) or specific logistics firms with a long history of treating staff like s
t now finding they don't have the whip hand.As has been noted, supermarkets aren't struggling with the high margin tat getting to stores and displays...
Sway said:
Then you won't be needing an influx of cheap labour then...
To provide that, there's the Army in times of national emergency.
However, there's a reason why the army aren't getting involved - because the shortages are caused by fearmongering (as per fuel) or specific logistics firms with a long history of treating staff like st now finding they don't have the whip hand.
As has been noted, supermarkets aren't struggling with the high margin tat getting to stores and displays...
Then why has the Prime Minister apparently ordered it?To provide that, there's the Army in times of national emergency.
However, there's a reason why the army aren't getting involved - because the shortages are caused by fearmongering (as per fuel) or specific logistics firms with a long history of treating staff like s
t now finding they don't have the whip hand.As has been noted, supermarkets aren't struggling with the high margin tat getting to stores and displays...
I agree about the fuel shortages it's people being idiots but per above all the public see is fuel shortages, food shortages, their kids not getting fed at school, energy issues, you name it and who and what do you think they'll associate that with?
Whatever my view of the man I'm fairly sure Johnson will bend as per the reports as that's where the public mood will take him.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Sway said:
Then you won't be needing an influx of cheap labour then...
To provide that, there's the Army in times of national emergency.
However, there's a reason why the army aren't getting involved - because the shortages are caused by fearmongering (as per fuel) or specific logistics firms with a long history of treating staff like st now finding they don't have the whip hand.
As has been noted, supermarkets aren't struggling with the high margin tat getting to stores and displays...
Then why has the Prime Minister apparently ordered it?To provide that, there's the Army in times of national emergency.
However, there's a reason why the army aren't getting involved - because the shortages are caused by fearmongering (as per fuel) or specific logistics firms with a long history of treating staff like s
t now finding they don't have the whip hand.As has been noted, supermarkets aren't struggling with the high margin tat getting to stores and displays...
I agree about the fuel shortages it's people being idiots but per above all the public see is fuel shortages, food shortages, their kids not getting fed at school, energy issues, you name it and who and what do you think they'll associate that with?
Whatever my view of the man I'm fairly sure Johnson will bend as per the reports as that's where the public mood will take him.
Thing is, the "public" aren't seeing these things anywhere other than in the media. There aren't fuel shortages, there aren't food shortages, there is no reason for kids not to be fed at school, there aren't 'energy issues', etc.
Of course, after seeing these things in the media, they self perpetuate.
There are really only two real 'problems' underpinning all those things.
A lack of HGV drivers for a wide range of reasons, very few linked to the government (and of course they're getting immense flak for actually taking action and doubling licence test capacity) and almost entirely rooted in exploitative businesses.
Gas prices (specifically) rising all over the place due to a couple of global causes. We could have less reliance on gas - but that would have meant more reliance on coal and nuclear, and those decisions were made decades ago (and supported by the public at large).
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Sway said:
Key for me is if they go this route, they've got to adopt the Swiss model.
Visa only if you can show you're not undercutting what a British driver would currently expect for the same job.
We cannot continue down the path of screwing our citizens in order to import cheap labour who'll accept appalling conditions.
Key for me in the short term is that people don't have to worry about being able to buy fuel to get to work or food to eat and schools don't have food shortages.Visa only if you can show you're not undercutting what a British driver would currently expect for the same job.
We cannot continue down the path of screwing our citizens in order to import cheap labour who'll accept appalling conditions.
My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
eccles said:
The reality is that people don't have to worry about buying fuel or food, it's purely made up by the media.
My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
What are you doing being all sensible?My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
Shouldn't you be swimming by now?
eccles said:
The reality is that people don't have to worry about buying fuel or food, it's purely made up by the media.
My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
The media have a massive role in this I agree entirely but once it starts to snowball the Government aren't likely to sit back and do nothing.My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
Boris Johnson believed to have overruled ministers unwilling to compromise on post-Brexit immigration as forecourt queues mount
Let's see but if true it's probably better than having the public perception being one of needing the Army to stop the pumps running dry.
eccles said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Sway said:
Key for me is if they go this route, they've got to adopt the Swiss model.
Visa only if you can show you're not undercutting what a British driver would currently expect for the same job.
We cannot continue down the path of screwing our citizens in order to import cheap labour who'll accept appalling conditions.
Key for me in the short term is that people don't have to worry about being able to buy fuel to get to work or food to eat and schools don't have food shortages.Visa only if you can show you're not undercutting what a British driver would currently expect for the same job.
We cannot continue down the path of screwing our citizens in order to import cheap labour who'll accept appalling conditions.
My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Sway said:
Then you won't be needing an influx of cheap labour then...
To provide that, there's the Army in times of national emergency.
However, there's a reason why the army aren't getting involved - because the shortages are caused by fearmongering (as per fuel) or specific logistics firms with a long history of treating staff like st now finding they don't have the whip hand.
As has been noted, supermarkets aren't struggling with the high margin tat getting to stores and displays...
Then why has the Prime Minister apparently ordered it?To provide that, there's the Army in times of national emergency.
However, there's a reason why the army aren't getting involved - because the shortages are caused by fearmongering (as per fuel) or specific logistics firms with a long history of treating staff like s
t now finding they don't have the whip hand.As has been noted, supermarkets aren't struggling with the high margin tat getting to stores and displays...
I agree about the fuel shortages it's people being idiots but per above all the public see is fuel shortages, food shortages, their kids not getting fed at school, energy issues, you name it and who and what do you think they'll associate that with?
Whatever my view of the man I'm fairly sure Johnson will bend as per the reports as that's where the public mood will take him.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:eccles said:
The reality is that people don't have to worry about buying fuel or food, it's purely made up by the media.
My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
The media have a massive role in this I agree entirely but once it starts to snowball the Government aren't likely to sit back and do nothing.My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
Boris Johnson believed to have overruled ministers unwilling to compromise on post-Brexit immigration as forecourt queues mount
Let's see but if true it's probably better than having the public perception being one of needing the Army to stop the pumps running dry.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:eccles said:
The reality is that people don't have to worry about buying fuel or food, it's purely made up by the media.
My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
The media have a massive role in this I agree entirely but once it starts to snowball the Government aren't likely to sit back and do nothing.My local supermarket has had random gaps on the shelves for the last 6 months, nobody panicked, they just waited a day or two for the next load to turn up and buy it then.
From time to time that same supermarket had had pumps shut off due to lack of fuel. Nobody panicked, they went to the other station up the road.
The media get hold of the story, the idiots in the government say the worst thing possible, 'don't panic buy', and everyone panics!!!!
The local roads have been gridlocked here all afternoon with idiots panic buying fuel, when there's no shortage!
The whole situation is purely the media stoking it up for the hard of thinking.
Boris Johnson believed to have overruled ministers unwilling to compromise on post-Brexit immigration as forecourt queues mount
Let's see but if true it's probably better than having the public perception being one of needing the Army to stop the pumps running dry.
Personally, I'd far prefer the Army to step in in limited numbers for actually critical areas. Not enabling s
tty business practices to carry on because it's expedient and easier.I'd also be seriously looking at the ability for the media to generate fear through hyperbolic scaremongering. They are absolutely culpable for their actions.
Sway said:
You think it's better that instead of supporting those workers who've been negatively effected for decades, and very specific logistics firms having immense issues attracting drivers due to their operating approaches - that we just cave and let them crack on even more?
Personally, I'd far prefer the Army to step in in limited numbers for actually critical areas. Not enabling stty business practices to carry on because it's expedient and easier.
I'd also be seriously looking at the ability for the media to generate fear through hyperbolic scaremongering. They are absolutely culpable for their actions.
I'm not running the country.Personally, I'd far prefer the Army to step in in limited numbers for actually critical areas. Not enabling s
tty business practices to carry on because it's expedient and easier.I'd also be seriously looking at the ability for the media to generate fear through hyperbolic scaremongering. They are absolutely culpable for their actions.
I haven't caved.
Best ask Johnson why he's apparently doing those things.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Sway said:
You think it's better that instead of supporting those workers who've been negatively effected for decades, and very specific logistics firms having immense issues attracting drivers due to their operating approaches - that we just cave and let them crack on even more?
Personally, I'd far prefer the Army to step in in limited numbers for actually critical areas. Not enabling stty business practices to carry on because it's expedient and easier.
I'd also be seriously looking at the ability for the media to generate fear through hyperbolic scaremongering. They are absolutely culpable for their actions.
I'm not running the country.Personally, I'd far prefer the Army to step in in limited numbers for actually critical areas. Not enabling s
tty business practices to carry on because it's expedient and easier.I'd also be seriously looking at the ability for the media to generate fear through hyperbolic scaremongering. They are absolutely culpable for their actions.
I haven't caved.
Best ask Johnson why he's apparently doing those things.
So, what would you do if you were running the country?
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I wouldn't have got us into this mess to start with so I'm not the right person to ask.
Anyway best of luck finding a way to spin this into another Brexit win and the trolley definitely not selling you out by doing another u-turn
You wouldn't?Anyway best of luck finding a way to spin this into another Brexit win and the trolley definitely not selling you out by doing another u-turn
You'd have avoided something that's effected the entire developed world, as well as preventing global level events to prevent root causes?
Blimey. It'd be really, really interesting to know how you'd have done that.
Well done for once again leaping to making it partisan. Won't someone think of the children...
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