Tory Leadership Election

[Cold Fusion]

It is all over now but I wanted the clown to win, Boris (or Ronald McDonald as I call him) Would have made a mess of running the country and would have lost the Conazis the election in 2020.

[king arthur]

Cold Fusion said:

It is all over now but I wanted the clown to win, Boris (or Ronald McDonald as I call him) Would have made a mess of running the country and would have lost the Conazis the election in 2020.

You wanted to see the country ruined just to prove a political point?

[johnxjsc1985]

king arthur said:

You wanted to see the country ruined just to prove a political point?

seems we have a few or more than a few who would be happy for the Country to fail just so they could say
"I told you so". I find that sad.

[PositronicRay]

king arthur said:

Cold Fusion said:

It is all over now but I wanted the clown to win, Boris (or Ronald McDonald as I call him) Would have made a mess of running the country and would have lost the Conazis the election in 2020.

You wanted to see the country ruined just to prove a political point?

No hope at all so many bitter and twisted (or just stupid) people. A democracy only works if you educate the electorate.

[Derek Smith]

///ajd said:

Derek - not quite how I recall it - they all promised the moon on a stick on immigration:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/eu-refe...

Wailing about 330,000 and class sizes does imply they will significantly reduce immigration, though they were careful not to put a figure on it as they were lying to draw in certain demographics.

--

Note how they all seemed to want Cameron to resign too back then. That was a lie too it seems going by all the subsequent "Dave you left" wailing!

I agree. There were suggestions of all sorts of things. There was oodles of money for hospitals. There was also the promise, albeit before the official brigade got going, of more hospitals, bigger army, police (I think they mentioned fire service, but can't be sure), and other stuff. All paid for by the £350m per week that we'd save.

How the reduced EU immigration tallies with free movement under an option similar to Norway was a little bit obscure, but I'm sure they worked it out in detail.

When I was a kid the message from the labour party was that we should be nice to immigrants. This was spun by the papers to mean that we should have open borders to Indians, West Indians and everyone else but Australians. The odd thing was that increased immigration was a plank of the conservatives. It was seen as a way to lower wages. The tories want immigration.

May has got a difficult balance to maintain, although made easier, I think, by Johnson's promise that the Norwegian Option provided an answer to all our problems. She can, reasonably, go for something similar. The plans the EU have got in mind for the next two or three years regarding trading agreements would then, I would hope, not have any impact on us.

I never liked May. I'm rather pleased she's been made PM. She'll probably, almost definitely, do her best, and with regards negotiations I think (and damn well hope) she'll do well. But she will be blamed and criticised regardless for the problems we will suffer in the next two or three years. As someone on PH said, they police had generated the lowest crimes figures since such records were kept and all they got was criticism from May. Perhaps she will then appreciate what she did to the individual police officers who did their best and did well.

Karma. Expensive for us though but perhaps worth it.

[m3jappa]

What I find almost funny is the fact that so many of the remain camp insist on banging on about how thick the exit voters are and how they are obsessed with the 350m.

Believe it or not we are not all thick. The 350m was a lie, a lie aimed to the thick, just like the lies which came from the remain camp, are the remainders who thought an emergency budget would be called thick as well?

I voted out because I believe we can actually be stronger (something which is now starting to be insinuated) out of Europe (or with looser less restrictive ties). I also believe that the eu as a whole is going down the pan.

I run a small buisness, I have a wife and baby, I'm ready to take on significantly more mortgage debt. I do not want a recession, however I am placed within reason to take it. I will hopefully be placed for the next boom. I also hope the future will be brighter for my daughter.
Just a note here, I'm fairly switched on, I've made a living and am solvent, I'm the total opposite to the typical tradesman.
I wonder if I am thick, then is a friend of mine who is on a healthy 6 figure salary who voted out also thick? By his own admission his company may well be in trouble. Is my other friend thick who runs a multi million pound construction related company who works for all the major house builders thick?

It's not all about bloody foreigners and it's not either all about today but the future!

[Troubleatmill]

The £350 Million is mentioned a lot as being unfair....

But then....

Govt - "Right fellas - each side has 7 Million of your favourite British pounds to spend maximum on marketing your side of the argument. Now... are we all agreed."

Leave & Remain camp - "Yes. Crystal clear. £7 Million for each side. Got it."

Govt -" Good. Now we also have a view - and we think to sway public opinion .... we are spending £9 Million on promoting why everyone should vote Remain."




It is fecking rotten - no matter what your politics are.

Either both sides are fighting on an equal footing - or it is rigged to feck.

[Derek Smith]

m3jappa said:

What I find almost funny is the fact that so many of the remain camp insist on banging on about how thick the exit voters are and how they are obsessed with the 350m.

Believe it or not we are not all thick. The 350m was a lie, a lie aimed to the thick, just like the lies which came from the remain camp, are the remainders who thought an emergency budget would be called thick as well?

I voted out because I believe we can actually be stronger (something which is now starting to be insinuated) out of Europe (or with looser less restrictive ties). I also believe that the eu as a whole is going down the pan.

I run a small buisness, I have a wife and baby, I'm ready to take on significantly more mortgage debt. I do not want a recession, however I am placed within reason to take it. I will hopefully be placed for the next boom. I also hope the future will be brighter for my daughter.
Just a note here, I'm fairly switched on, I've made a living and am solvent, I'm the total opposite to the typical tradesman.
I wonder if I am thick, then is a friend of mine who is on a healthy 6 figure salary who voted out also thick? By his own admission his company may well be in trouble. Is my other friend thick who runs a multi million pound construction related company who works for all the major house builders thick?

It's not all about bloody foreigners and it's not either all about today but the future!

In what way can having looser ties with the EU be of benefit to small businesses? You say believe it will be better. You've placed a big bet on that without knowing the odds.

What looser ties do you expect? Do you believe the figure that was given regarding how much we'd save if we didn't have 'all the EU red tape' to comply with? Or was that just for the thick ones?

I obviously hope your are right, like everyone does I would assume, but I'm stunned that you, who were successful, should place so much on a whim. The home market will contract to a degree, the amount in dispute, but not the fact. Trading with other EU countries will become more difficult over time, at least up until an agreement, but hopefully not after. So there's likely to be problems in the short term. No one knows what the long term effects will be. No one. Not you, not me, not the idiot across the road from me who is now moaning that his shares have taken a hit.

You know, don't you, that if we opt for an agreement like the Swiss/Norwegian/others we will still have to comply with most of the regs we comply with now.

You say it was not all about foreigners. Just as well really because nothing will, it seems, change.

[m3jappa]

Right, go easy on me as I find it hard to portray my exact thoughts on this.

In my simplistic terms I believe that we will never have no trade with Europe, I simply do not believe that will happen, I believe that whoever is the one who's about to press the button wouldn't do it just to appease the voters of an opinion poll if it meant financial suicide.
I think we will agree terms with Europe which will be much the same, I do think it will create new opportunity with the other hundred odd countries, some of which are keen to have agreements with us. I believe that will create new jobs which in turn will trickle the money down to people like me.

For me it isn't about the red tape, I'm too small to really be affected by it, although I'm sure some of it already does and I've just grown up with it not noticing iykwim.

And what if the euro zone does collapse? Would that be good for us if we are still a part of it? You say I've placed a bet but I could also say those that want to stay are placing a bet that the euro zone is safe and secure for their futures.

I really do understand why people voted in, my head said stay, my heart said go. Doesn't mean I'm right, wrong or stupid.

Very bizarrely the week after brexit I booked more work in a week than I would in a month, the phone has showed no signs of slowing either.
My work is very much based on confidence, I suppose there's currently a larger portion of the public who could be deemed more confident than the other.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. My post above I just wanted to say that we aren't all racist idiots. Immigration needs control but when I keep reading everyone who voted out is racist I'm actually pretty offended.
Don't get me wrong I've met a fair few who really are fking stupid and have gone on about burkas etc they can't be helped either way!

[jjlynn27]

m3jappa said:

Right, go easy on me as I find it hard to portray my exact thoughts on this.

In my simplistic terms I believe that we will never have no trade with Europe, I simply do not believe that will happen, I believe that whoever is the one who's about to press the button wouldn't do it just to appease the voters of an opinion poll if it meant financial suicide.
I think we will agree terms with Europe which will be much the same, I do think it will create new opportunity with the other hundred odd countries, some of which are keen to have agreements with us. I believe that will create new jobs which in turn will trickle the money down to people like me.

For me it isn't about the red tape, I'm too small to really be affected by it, although I'm sure some of it already does and I've just grown up with it not noticing iykwim.

And what if the euro zone does collapse? Would that be good for us if we are still a part of it? You say I've placed a bet but I could also say those that want to stay are placing a bet that the euro zone is safe and secure for their futures.

I really do understand why people voted in, my head said stay, my heart said go. Doesn't mean I'm right, wrong or stupid.

Very bizarrely the week after brexit I booked more work in a week than I would in a month, the phone has showed no signs of slowing either.
My work is very much based on confidence, I suppose there's currently a larger portion of the public who could be deemed more confident than the other.

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. My post above I just wanted to say that we aren't all racist idiots. Immigration needs control but when I keep reading everyone who voted out is racist I'm actually pretty offended.
Don't get me wrong I've met a fair few who really are fking stupid and have gone on about burkas etc they can't be helped either way!

Good post.
What I'd like to know where do you read that all people who voted out are stupid and/or racist? I voted in, but I know very intelligent people who voted out, and they couldn't be any further from being racist. Genuine question.

[m3jappa]

I just see lots of comments, mainly on Facebook, some on here about the stupidity and racism aspects. Perhaps I'm taking them to heart, which is possible as when someone is accused of something they believe they aren't guilty of they do take it to heart.

[whoami]

jjlynn27 said:

Good post.
What I'd like to know where do you read that all people who voted out are stupid and/or racist? I voted in, but I know very intelligent people who voted out, and they couldn't be any further from being racist. Genuine question.

There are absolutely loads of posts on here alleging exactly what you ask.

You must have seen them.

[jjlynn27]

No, I haven't seen them.

I've seen the posts with claims that majority of out voters are less educated or whatever else was in that Ashcroft exit survey. I've also seen quite a few posts where people type 'I must be stupid / racist ...', which I find weird.

Every single one of us know their own level of education, we know if we are actual engineers or we call ourselves that after spending time on a two night course and become engineer of refrigeration and other white goods.

If someone says that all people who voted each way are something, anything, that is quite obviously not so, and says more about source than anything else.

[jjlynn27]

m3jappa said:

I just see lots of comments, mainly on Facebook, some on here about the stupidity and racism aspects. Perhaps I'm taking them to heart, which is possible as when someone is accused of something they believe they aren't guilty of they do take it to heart.

Missed this post. You are clearly not stupid, so why would you take what someone that you'll never meet, or someone that you'd never spend time in real life think about you.

[hidetheelephants]

Derek Smith said:

What looser ties do you expect? Do you believe the figure that was given regarding how much we'd save if we didn't have 'all the EU red tape' to comply with? Or was that just for the thick ones?

I obviously hope your are right, like everyone does I would assume, but I'm stunned that you, who were successful, should place so much on a whim. The home market will contract to a degree, the amount in dispute, but not the fact. Trading with other EU countries will become more difficult over time, at least up until an agreement, but hopefully not after. So there's likely to be problems in the short term. No one knows what the long term effects will be. No one. Not you, not me, not the idiot across the road from me who is now moaning that his shares have taken a hit.

You know, don't you, that if we opt for an agreement like the Swiss/Norwegian/others we will still have to comply with most of the regs we comply with now.

Assuming EEA membership is obtained UK access to the single market continues uninterrupted; if there's an agreement to be made it should be within months rather than years. You're right about the regs, but we already comply with them all anyway; if we've got any sense we can plan to leave the EEA or even dissolve it entirely as it will assume less and less importance as supranational bodies like the WTO, UNECE etc increasingly set the rules and the EU simply rubberstamps them.

[anonymous-user]

jjlynn27 said:

No, I haven't seen them.

I've seen the posts with claims that majority of out voters are less educated or whatever else was in that Ashcroft exit survey. I've also seen quite a few posts where people type 'I must be stupid / racist ...', which I find weird.

Every single one of us know their own level of education, we know if we are actual engineers or we call ourselves that after spending time on a two night course and become engineer of refrigeration and other white goods.

If someone says that all people who voted each way are something, anything, that is quite obviously not so, and says more about source than anything else.

Another remainer who just glosses over things and ignores his owns sides failings. How surprising

You should go and check out mph1977 and cmoose's comments in the "angry" thread

[johnxjsc1985]

she can start by getting shut of that BMW. Get ready for more women than ever before in the cabinet.

[Guybrush]

Robertj21a said:

Jimboka said:

Unfortunatlly a lot of suckers voted Brexit purely because they believed the lies & that is why the lying Brexit leaders (who run for the hills rather than 'deliver') won.
Luckily the adults are now back in charge so it will be watered down/canned

You are going to be so very disappointed !

Remind me, what was Osborne ranting on about in his scaremongering stories day after day ? -surely the world should have ended by now ?

Many remainians were easily scared. Pretty unsophisticated people really, not really knowing they were being fooled.

[brenflys777]

m3jappa said:

I just see lots of comments, mainly on Facebook, some on here about the stupidity and racism aspects. Perhaps I'm taking them to heart, which is possible as when someone is accused of something they believe they aren't guilty of they do take it to heart.

I agree. My FB is full of my most tolerant, liberal fair minded friends frothing at the mouth about the shame & embaressment they feel for sharing a country with those who chose to vote out. Initially I replied to them but FB for me is for friends and family stuff not politics and lots of people seem too shell shocked to reason with anyway.

One of the most common insults to outers I saw was the :

" Not all outers are racists, but I guarantee every racist will vote out! "

These intolerant and lazy assumptions didn't work as reasoned argument before the result but repeated now trying to associate all 17M outers with racists serve no purpose but division.

The angry thread contained lots of examples, and the tone of debate was pretty insulting and patronising to outers - if you look at the contributions from posters asking for examples it's quite eye opening.

Gisela Stuart featured in a good article about it in one of our local papers:

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news...

[Derek Smith]

hidetheelephants said:

Assuming EEA membership is obtained UK access to the single market continues uninterrupted; if there's an agreement to be made it should be within months rather than years. You're right about the regs, but we already comply with them all anyway; if we've got any sense we can plan to leave the EEA or even dissolve it entirely as it will assume less and less importance as supranational bodies like the WTO, UNECE etc increasingly set the rules and the EU simply rubberstamps them.

Going down to the WTO would be a disaster for this country. It really isn't an option, other than if all else fails.

There is every chance that in years to come there could be another international trade body rising, something like the Pan Pacific, but who could be in it? There are precious few countries that are not aligned, at least those worth trading with.

Initially we should go for EU Lite, something like Norway has. It will cost of course, but could be a holding position until we get settled. The referendum has forced an action. We are unable to pick a time to go out when we are at our strongest, or where concessions would have to be awarded. So settling for more of the same, but different enough to satisfy the referendum result, would allow us to have chats with other countries.

We don't want to go to other countries with cap in hand.