RMT union vote for a national rail strike

[Ouroboros]

legzr1 said:

But, the bit I’ve quoted is important - you agree this is nothing to do with drivers and, yet, feel the need to post another story about drivers.

it was in reply to a post about drivers, I never actually bought it up. it was 6 years ago BTW.

Anyway it is wrong, they earn 100k plus with OT

Attack the argument not the person.

i can say good stuff about my experiences, the ex coal miners who transfered were brilliant grafters. The close nit nature of the workers, they look out for each other. The way if someone had an accident they did the best to keep them employed, a guy had his fingers cut off by wheels on unchoked train.

The manager were pretty bad, the billing jobs came directly from mangement so can't really blame workers, and i have said it is actually both sides that have issues, but feels like Israel v Palestine no one will give ground.

Anyways..

[Vasco]

legzr1 said:

Vasco said:

I would assume that the best people to make a reasoned and balanced judgement of safety vs costs should be those senior NR managers paid (well) to take on those responsibilities - in conjunction with subordinates who have routine practical experience.

Always a little dangerous to assume.

In the past, senior NR managers (and their earlier counterparts) where paid to ‘reason and balance’ risks.
Some got it wrong.
Some passengers and staff died.

Safety was improved, regulations tightened, laws enacted to make it better.

It’s not perfect.

Have a browse at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_acciden...

As far as I’m aware, every incident was followed by an enquiry, risks reassessed, improvements made.


Are you (and others) seriously suggesting the relaxation of regulation introduced precisely to save life and prevent serious life-changing injuries?

And to entrust those cuts to the same body in charge during all the other major incidents? The same body answerable to this current Government and DfT?

Please don't make things up, I've never said anything about relaxing regulations.

If my assumption is 'dangerous', who is it that is employed by NR to consider reasoned and balanced judgements of safety ?

[legzr1]

Ouroboros said:

it was in reply to a post about drivers, I never actually bought it up. it was 6 years ago BTW.

Anyway it is wrong, they earn 100k plus with OT

Attack the argument not the person.

i can say good stuff about my experiences, the ex coal miners who transfered were brilliant grafters. The close nit nature of the workers, they look out for each other. The way if someone had an accident they did the best to keep them employed, a guy had his fingers cut off by wheels on unchoked train.

The manager were pretty bad, the billing jobs came directly from mangement so can't really blame workers, and i have said it is actually both sides that have issues, but feels like Israel v Palestine no one will give ground.

Anyways..

You miss my point.

You added more fuel to the fire with anecdotes about greedy drivers.
It doesn’t help.
Others have done the same and continue to do so.

When I pointed it out you chose to double-down with your £100,000 figure.
A figure that is around double the amount a Northen driver earns basic. They employ the largest number of drivers by some margin too.

But, I get it - a number based on basic + £30-£40K in overtime strengthens your point about greedy drivers in a thread about RMT disputes.

Anyways indeed

[Ouroboros]

legzr1 said:

You miss my point.

You added more fuel to the fire with anecdotes about greedy drivers.
It doesn’t help.
Others have done the same and continue to do so.

When I pointed it out you chose to double-down with your £100,000 figure.
A figure that is around double the amount a Northen driver earns basic. They employ the largest number of drivers by some margin too.

But, I get it - a number based on basic + £30-£40K in overtime strengthens your point about greedy drivers in a thread about RMT disputes.

Anyways indeed

you are obsessed.

warehouse jobs are paying 13-15 quid a hour, no skills.

I worked for JCB no real skills, the workers got 16-20 per hours, 1.5 on Saturdays, Sundays double time. A solicitor with years of training works out 20 quid an hour.

There are a st loads of jobs that pay a lot, you just very touchy if the railway is mentioned.

[legzr1]

Vasco said:

Please don't make things up, I've never said anything about relaxing regulations.

If my assumption is 'dangerous', who is it that is employed by NR to consider reasoned and balanced judgements of safety ?

Tell me, in your cost-vs-safety analysis, without cutting staff how are you going to manage it?

I don’t make things up.

Regulations require, at the moment at least, a given amount of trained staff to carry out safety-critical tasks.

You seem to suggest that not as many staff are needed. That’s the cost part taken care of. This would need a relaxation of current regulation.

Unless you have another plan?

[rjfp1962]

No dates on further RMT strikes yet as last weeks ones conclude...
They may well wait a month or so for the school summer holidays to begin in my opinion.....!


https://inews.co.uk/news/train-strikes-when-next-r...

[Ouroboros]

And just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, barristers going on strike, turned down a 15% payrise. Maybe they should train as train drivers?

[legzr1]

Ouroboros said:

you are obsessed.

warehouse jobs are paying 13-15 quid a hour, no skills.

I worked for JCB no real skills, the workers got 16-20 per hours, 1.5 on Saturdays, Sundays double time. A solicitor with years of training works out 20 quid an hour.

There are a st loads of jobs that pay a lot, you just very touchy if the railway is mentioned.

Obsessed?

For pointing out that you continually fog the debate with numbers plucked from thin air in a thread about an RMT dispute?

Do you want me to post a list of jobs including the wage + o/t of all grades that have fk all to do with the dispute?

There would be no point would there?


But, don’t let me hold you back.

Edited by legzr1 on Monday 27th June 13:00

[legzr1]

Ouroboros said:

And just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, barristers going on strike, turned down a 15% payrise. Maybe they should train as train drivers?

Or Astronauts.
Or PMs.
Or any other career that actually has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread.

[valiant]

Ouroboros said:

And just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, barristers going on strike, turned down a 15% payrise. Maybe they should train as train drivers?

Done always believe what comes out of Raab’s mouth.

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/06/27/the-crim...

[legzr1]

valiant said:

Done always believe what comes out of Raab’s mouth.

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/06/27/the-crim...

What a mess!

Interesting parallels in some of those points can be drawn to this thread.

Raab, Shapps, Truss, Patel, etc etc.


Is there any hope?

[bad company]

legzr1 said:

bad company said:

He’s editor of the left wing Tribune Magazine. That poll is highly suspect at best.

Makes you wonder why they’re used by Unilever, Barclays and Government Equalities amongst others doesn’t it?

Are you going to pick fault only on polls that don’t align with your prejudice?

Maybe you have another half-arsed, inaccurate and silly little meme to back up your point?

Who’s used by Unilever etc., who conducted the poll?

I take it that you agree with the strike?

Edited by bad company on Monday 27th June 13:53

[Ouroboros]

valiant said:

Done always believe what comes out of Raab’s mouth.

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/06/27/the-crim...

it was from the BBC, which bit is wrong?

''Kirsty Brimelow QC, deputy chair of the CBA, said the proposed 15% pay rise would not happen until the end of 2023.

By then, she told BBC's Today programme earlier, it would be too late to help and would not do enough to stem the flow of junior barristers leaving the bar.''

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61946038

[legzr1]

bad company said:

Who’s used by Unilever etc., who conducted the poll?

You question an independent poll carried out by a company used by the companies I mentioned.

Tell me how the poll is in anyway suspect.

Once you’ve worked that out maybe you can tell me what use your last meme was too?

[legzr1]

Ouroboros said:

it was from the BBC, which bit is wrong?

''Kirsty Brimelow QC, deputy chair of the CBA, said the proposed 15% pay rise would not happen until the end of 2023.

By then, she told BBC's Today programme earlier, it would be too late to help and would not do enough to stem the flow of junior barristers leaving the bar.''

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61946038

She also said “ the issue had been "caused by government, not by barristers”.

With that in mind, read the points listed in the earlier link to Secret Barrister.


Highlights the issues with the earlier suggestion of ridding us of nasty unions to be replaced with independent tribunals. The question back then was “what if the tribunal was ignored or proposals delayed for years?”.

[cirian75]

valiant said:

Ouroboros said:

And just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, barristers going on strike, turned down a 15% payrise. Maybe they should train as train drivers?

Done always believe what comes out of Raab’s mouth.

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/06/27/the-crim...

Rabb is lying

81.5% voted for this action.

There is no “15% pay rise” on offer.

There is no “£7,000 more a year”.

Junior criminal barristers will remain on less than minimum wage.

https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1541353...

[Vasco]

legzr1 said:

Vasco said:

Please don't make things up, I've never said anything about relaxing regulations.

If my assumption is 'dangerous', who is it that is employed by NR to consider reasoned and balanced judgements of safety ?

Tell me, in your cost-vs-safety analysis, without cutting staff how are you going to manage it?

I don’t make things up.

Regulations require, at the moment at least, a given amount of trained staff to carry out safety-critical tasks.

You seem to suggest that not as many staff are needed. That’s the cost part taken care of. This would need a relaxation of current regulation.

Unless you have another plan?

I've already said that I never said anything about regulations - so you've made that up in your earlier comments.
I see that you also handily ignored my genuine comment about some tasks nowadays may need MORE controls etc - why didn't you comment on that 'positive' suggestion ?. **Some answers from you would be appreciated**

I'm not sure if you're being deliberately blinkered in the hope that I, and others, will be convinced, but I hate to tell you that the rail industry is NOT unique - you seem to continually suggest that safety is something unique on the railways. It's not - and that may help you better understand why many others also have an excellent knowledge of the importance of safety procedures, controls etc etc.

The sign of a good manager and workforce, in ANY industry may well be that they achieve what is required, safely and effectively, at a acceptable cost. They don't need the rail version, which appears to require a multitude of different people and tasks. Seemingly, in the view of senior NR management, they simply don't need so many people - that's for them to make that judgement, not you.

Your general approach to over-manning seems to be that compulsory redundancy is simply not acceptable to RMT members. You can wheel out as many arguments as you like about safety but if NR say there are too many people then some have to leave or be reallocated to other duties. THE RMT ATTITUDE TO COMPULSORY REDUNDANCY IS PRECISELY WHY IT HAS TO REMAIN ON THE TABLE AS A *POSSIBLE* OPTION - just like everywhere else.

There's likely to be little trust in the RMT nowadays and a high risk that they'll not comply with what they appear to agree. If they are so sure that they will comply with the revised T&Cs then they can ignore CR as it won't be needed. The fact that you, and the RMT, whinge on about compulsory redundancies suggests to me that you know full well that there's a good chance that revised T&Cs won't eventually proceed as planned. The RMT needs to earn a lot of trust and it seems to have a struggle to even understand why CR is needed at this stage.

[bad company]

legzr1 said:

bad company said:

Who’s used by Unilever etc., who conducted the poll?

You question an independent poll carried out by a company used by the companies I mentioned.

Tell me how the poll is in anyway suspect.

Once you’ve worked that out maybe you can tell me what use your last meme was too?

I asked you who conducted the poll to which you refer. You don’t seem to want to answer but here’s another:-

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/rail-tubes-...

[legzr1]

bad company said:

Who’s used by Unilever etc., who conducted the poll?

I take it that you agree with the strike?

Edited by bad company on Monday 27th June 13:53

To answer the question I missed on your edit.

Taking everything into account, the deceit, lies, twisting of figures and the right-wing propaganda (repeated numerous times on this very thread) I support the current action 100%.

M Lynch, in less than a month, has taken this st Government to task in a way the opposition has not in 12 years.

YMMV.

[legzr1]

bad company said:

legzr1 said:

bad company said:

Who’s used by Unilever etc., who conducted the poll?

You question an independent poll carried out by a company used by the companies I mentioned.

Tell me how the poll is in anyway suspect.

Once you’ve worked that out maybe you can tell me what use your last meme was too?

I asked you who conducted the poll to which you refer. You don’t seem to want to answer but here’s another:-

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/rail-tubes-...

The poll was conducted by RMT was it not?

The poll was undertaken by an independent polling company used by many other companies.

There are other polls out there with differing results.

Are you going to answer me now?

What is so shady about the poll I posted?
What are you suggesting? Outside influence? A massaging of figures?

And, what has train driver wages to do with an RMT dispute.


Your turn.