How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 5)

[soupdragon1]

Vanden Saab said:

soupdragon1 said:

Ireland will remain in the EU so I don't think the food supply will be as big an issue for Ireland as it would be for the UK.

And the Irish Economy isn't as reliant on the UK to anywhere near the extent that the public seem to imagine.

Quote:

The economy of Ireland is a knowledge economy, focused on services into high-tech, life sciences and financial services industries.

In the global GDP per capita tables, Ireland ranks 5th of 187 in the IMF table and 6th of 175 in the World Bank ranking.

Note that the Irish GDP data below is subject to material distortion by the tax planning activities of foreign multinationals in Ireland.

You use the word distortion like it's not real data. It is real data.

[psi310398]

Nickgnome said:

Yes they did.

It was a blatant abdication of responsibility of our elected representatives.

I am not a Sir. What was your need for the fatuous jibe?

I agree with Nick.

This was a buck pass, pure and simple. Our governments have traditionally done all they can to avoid referenda and only call them when they find themselves in a complete bind in the Commons. Referenda should never be 'get out of jail free' cards for an incompetent, lazy or cowardly administration. If only we'd had the option on the paper to vote to tell the gits to stop bothering us and do what they were paid to do...

Looking forward, however, I think we need to regularise the position. We could comfortably marry a representative democracy with referenda but we'd need clear and unbreachable rules and/or some kind of threshold to cross before calling one and no way of avoiding one if those criteria were satisfied.

One approach might be that any big constitutional change is by law put to a referendum before being enacted. So accession, Maastricht, Lisbon, the Euro etc could have not just been enacted by Parliament but would have needed the people's approval for ratification. I'd have thought that altering the rules of succession for the monarchy, if we are being consistent, would be another.

Another rule might be that, once a result has been declared, there would be a five or ten yen year moratorium on having another referendum on the subject unless a very high threshold was passed e.g. 66% of all MPs in favour.

[soupdragon1]

SpeckledJim said:

soupdragon1 said:

The feet are under the table. Hardly going to up sticks and move to Germany for example, because if rates are harmonised, what's the benefit?

There are lots of good reasons to go to Germany. They were trumped by Ireland because Ireland is cheap.

If Ireland is no longer cheap, then maybe the good reasons to go to Germany become compelling.

(Or maybe, if the UK becomes cheap, they come here...?)

Who knows what the future holds. If UK leaves properly, it won't be able to claim a status as a European centre of operations for example, but at the same time, once UK leaves, it can do whatever the heck it wants in terms of attracting foreign business.

The relocation from Dublin to Germany doesn't stack up for me though, the relocation costs for no financial benefit that I can see. Maybe cheaper payroll perhaps, but I've no idea of pay structures in other nations.

I think overall it's a fairly moot point. If EU pressurise Ireland in terms of tax rates, it would create instability and the EU can't afford another unhappy nation. Ireland, now well and truly back on their feet financially, might end up wanting to leave the EU as well lol

[Nickgnome]

gooner1 said:

Nickgnome said:

gooner1 said:

Nickgnome said:

Yes they did.

It was a blatant abdication of responsibility of our elected representatives.

I am not a Sir. What was your need for the fatuous jibe?

No need, just a common expression us plebs use.


And your answer re was the ensuing result not democratic?
Don't you consider it healthy for the aristocracy to get a kick up the arris occasionaly?

Aristocracy. Who are they? Do you think they will be the slightest impacted in any case?

I’m retired and it will have no neagative impact, in fact up till now slightlly positive. It may inconvenience me in a minor way.

It has however made a negative impact on some of my now ex staff and my ex business. Needless to say my old company has moved some resource into the EU to protect the business.

Why are you continously ignoring the same question?
To sum up, your objection to the referendum result is purely altruistic , ok.

Strange how you can define who the plebs are but not their opposites , yet go on to ask if they
will be impacted in the slightest.

I say what I mean and this should not be extrapolated, interpolated or inferred to mean anything else.

Did I say I was not a pleb?

I have no objection to the outcome and you cannot read in my words where I said I did.

I do object to the Referendum in principle I’m not sure what that’s so difficult to read from what I said.

Altruistic? Not sure where that came from.

[Nickgnome]

don'tbesilly said:

Nickgnome said:

gooner1 said:

Nickgnome said:

Yes they did.

It was a blatant abdication of responsibility of our elected representatives.

I am not a Sir. What was your need for the fatuous jibe?

No need, just a common expression us plebs use.


And your answer re was the ensuing result not democratic?
Don't you consider it healthy for the aristocracy to get a kick up the arris occasionaly?

Aristocracy. Who are they? Do you think they will be the slightest impacted in any case?

I’m retired and it will have no neagative impact, in fact up till now slightlly positive. It may inconvenience me in a minor way.

It has however made a negative impact on some of my now ex staff and my ex business. Needless to say my old company has moved some resource into the EU to protect the business.

Ex staff,ex business, old company,retired so no neagative (sic) impact, an anonymous name on a car forum, to which company do you refer?

You mentioned the slightlly (sic) positives, care to share?

I’m not anonymous at all. I’m sure you can find me if you want.

Positives. Although I’m not great at it my partner is quite good at trading. The turmoil in the markets had increased her returns.

[Nickgnome]

psi310398 said:

Nickgnome said:

Yes they did.

It was a blatant abdication of responsibility of our elected representatives.

I am not a Sir. What was your need for the fatuous jibe?

I agree with Nick.

This was a buck pass, pure and simple. Our governments have traditionally done all they can to avoid referenda and only call them when they find themselves in a complete bind in the Commons. Referenda should never be 'get out of jail free' cards for an incompetent, lazy or cowardly administration. If only we'd had the option on the paper to vote to tell the gits to stop bothering us and do what they were paid to do...

Looking forward, however, I think we need to regularise the position. We could comfortably marry a representative democracy with referenda but we'd need clear and unbreachable rules and/or some kind of threshold to cross before calling one and no way of avoiding one if those criteria were satisfied.

One approach might be that any big constitutional change is by law put to a referendum before being enacted. So accession, Maastricht, Lisbon, the Euro etc could have not just been enacted by Parliament but would have needed the people's approval for ratification. I'd have thought that altering the rules of succession for the monarchy, if we are being consistent, would be another.

Another rule might be that, once a result has been declared, there would be a five or ten yen year moratorium on having another referendum on the subject unless a very high threshold was passed e.g. 66% of all MPs in favour.

There is a danger of us reaching an accord in certain areas. Let’s hope our leaders can do likewise

[Dr Jekyll]

Nickgnome said:

gooner1 said:

Nickgnome said:

I did and I would. That is not the same as saying I want another vote.

I was brought up to believe we are a parliamentary democracy, not a Plebiscite.

We are, did not Parlament grant the referendum. Was the referendum result not democratic
enough for your liking, Sir

Yes they did.

It was a blatant abdication of responsibility of our elected representatives.

I am not a Sir. What was your need for the fatuous jibe?

So in a parliamentary democracy the responsibility of our elected representatives is to make decisions than agree with what NickGnome wants.

[Nickgnome]

Dr Jekyll said:

Nickgnome said:

gooner1 said:

Nickgnome said:

I did and I would. That is not the same as saying I want another vote.

I was brought up to believe we are a parliamentary democracy, not a Plebiscite.

We are, did not Parlament grant the referendum. Was the referendum result not democratic
enough for your liking, Sir

Yes they did.

It was a blatant abdication of responsibility of our elected representatives.

I am not a Sir. What was your need for the fatuous jibe?

So in a parliamentary democracy the responsibility of our elected representatives is to make decisions than agree with what NickGnome wants.

Unfortunatly your statement does not adress in anyway what I said.

[London424]

soupdragon1 said:

SpeckledJim said:

soupdragon1 said:

The feet are under the table. Hardly going to up sticks and move to Germany for example, because if rates are harmonised, what's the benefit?

There are lots of good reasons to go to Germany. They were trumped by Ireland because Ireland is cheap.

If Ireland is no longer cheap, then maybe the good reasons to go to Germany become compelling.

(Or maybe, if the UK becomes cheap, they come here...?)

Who knows what the future holds. If UK leaves properly, it won't be able to claim a status as a European centre of operations for example, but at the same time, once UK leaves, it can do whatever the heck it wants in terms of attracting foreign business.

The relocation from Dublin to Germany doesn't stack up for me though, the relocation costs for no financial benefit that I can see. Maybe cheaper payroll perhaps, but I've no idea of pay structures in other nations.

I think overall it's a fairly moot point. If EU pressurise Ireland in terms of tax rates, it would create instability and the EU can't afford another unhappy nation. Ireland, now well and truly back on their feet financially, might end up wanting to leave the EU as well lol

Why won’t the UK be able to claim status as a European centre of operations? Is the country being moved?

[Vanden Saab]

soupdragon1 said:

Vanden Saab said:

soupdragon1 said:

Ireland will remain in the EU so I don't think the food supply will be as big an issue for Ireland as it would be for the UK.

And the Irish Economy isn't as reliant on the UK to anywhere near the extent that the public seem to imagine.

Quote:

The economy of Ireland is a knowledge economy, focused on services into high-tech, life sciences and financial services industries.

In the global GDP per capita tables, Ireland ranks 5th of 187 in the IMF table and 6th of 175 in the World Bank ranking.

Note that the Irish GDP data below is subject to material distortion by the tax planning activities of foreign multinationals in Ireland.

You use the word distortion like it's not real data. It is real data.

It is real data, in so far as multi-nationals declare their profits in Ireland for tax reasons. The fact that almost none of this money has anything to do with Ireland is why there is a distortion. Even the OECD states that Irelands GDP does not accurately reflect the countries wealth.

[gooner1]

Nickgnome said:

I say what I mean and this should not be extrapolated, interpolated or inferred to mean anything else.

Did I say I was not a pleb?

I have no objection to the outcome and you cannot read in my words where I said I did.

I do object to the Referendum in principle I’m not sure what that’s so difficult to read from what I said.

Altruistic? Not sure where that came from.

You say what you mean, then should you not have said" I hope not, it's giving the vote to US plebs that's got us into this mess, if you consider yourself one of us plebs?

I didn't ask for your opinion on the outcome, I asked if you thought the result was democratic,, you didn't answer , and still haven't , so I can hardly read anything into your words at all.

I had no difficulty reading that you objected to the Referendum, what gave you that impression?

The altruistic comment came from your statement that leaving will have little or no effect
on you personally, so it seems that your objections are for the benefit of others.

[soupdragon1]

London424 said:

soupdragon1 said:

SpeckledJim said:

soupdragon1 said:

The feet are under the table. Hardly going to up sticks and move to Germany for example, because if rates are harmonised, what's the benefit?

There are lots of good reasons to go to Germany. They were trumped by Ireland because Ireland is cheap.

If Ireland is no longer cheap, then maybe the good reasons to go to Germany become compelling.

(Or maybe, if the UK becomes cheap, they come here...?)

Who knows what the future holds. If UK leaves properly, it won't be able to claim a status as a European centre of operations for example, but at the same time, once UK leaves, it can do whatever the heck it wants in terms of attracting foreign business.

The relocation from Dublin to Germany doesn't stack up for me though, the relocation costs for no financial benefit that I can see. Maybe cheaper payroll perhaps, but I've no idea of pay structures in other nations.

I think overall it's a fairly moot point. If EU pressurise Ireland in terms of tax rates, it would create instability and the EU can't afford another unhappy nation. Ireland, now well and truly back on their feet financially, might end up wanting to leave the EU as well lol

Why won’t the UK be able to claim status as a European centre of operations? Is the country being moved?

Yes, it's being moved out of the EU.

[London424]

soupdragon1 said:

London424 said:

soupdragon1 said:

SpeckledJim said:

soupdragon1 said:

The feet are under the table. Hardly going to up sticks and move to Germany for example, because if rates are harmonised, what's the benefit?

There are lots of good reasons to go to Germany. They were trumped by Ireland because Ireland is cheap.

If Ireland is no longer cheap, then maybe the good reasons to go to Germany become compelling.

(Or maybe, if the UK becomes cheap, they come here...?)

Who knows what the future holds. If UK leaves properly, it won't be able to claim a status as a European centre of operations for example, but at the same time, once UK leaves, it can do whatever the heck it wants in terms of attracting foreign business.

The relocation from Dublin to Germany doesn't stack up for me though, the relocation costs for no financial benefit that I can see. Maybe cheaper payroll perhaps, but I've no idea of pay structures in other nations.

I think overall it's a fairly moot point. If EU pressurise Ireland in terms of tax rates, it would create instability and the EU can't afford another unhappy nation. Ireland, now well and truly back on their feet financially, might end up wanting to leave the EU as well lol

Why won’t the UK be able to claim status as a European centre of operations? Is the country being moved?

Yes, it's being moved out of the EU.

Will the UK no longer be in Europe?

[soupdragon1]

Vanden Saab said:

soupdragon1 said:

Vanden Saab said:

soupdragon1 said:

Ireland will remain in the EU so I don't think the food supply will be as big an issue for Ireland as it would be for the UK.

And the Irish Economy isn't as reliant on the UK to anywhere near the extent that the public seem to imagine.

Quote:

The economy of Ireland is a knowledge economy, focused on services into high-tech, life sciences and financial services industries.

In the global GDP per capita tables, Ireland ranks 5th of 187 in the IMF table and 6th of 175 in the World Bank ranking.

Note that the Irish GDP data below is subject to material distortion by the tax planning activities of foreign multinationals in Ireland.

You use the word distortion like it's not real data. It is real data.

It is real data, in so far as multi-nationals declare their profits in Ireland for tax reasons. The fact that almost none of this money has anything to do with Ireland is why there is a distortion. Even the OECD states that Irelands GDP does not accurately reflect the countries wealth.

Point taken. It's a crude measure in that respect, granted.

[Nickgnome]

gooner1 said:

Nickgnome said:

I say what I mean and this should not be extrapolated, interpolated or inferred to mean anything else.

Did I say I was not a pleb?

I have no objection to the outcome and you cannot read in my words where I said I did.

I do object to the Referendum in principle I’m not sure what that’s so difficult to read from what I said.

Altruistic? Not sure where that came from.

You say what you mean, then should you not have said" I hope not, it's giving the vote to US plebs that's got us into this mess, if you consider yourself one of us plebs?

I didn't ask for your opinion on the outcome, I asked if you thought the result was democratic,, you didn't answer , and still haven't , so I can hardly read anything into your words at all.

I had no difficulty reading that you objected to the Referendum, what gave you that impression?

The altruistic comment came from your statement that leaving will have little or no effect
on you personally, so it seems that your objections are for the benefit of others.

If I had thought the referendum legitimate, then yes of course the outcome by the very nature would be democratic. Therefore any future referendum and the outcome therefrom would also be democratic.

If you recall your Roman history and schoolboy Latin then my reference to Plebs (Plebians) is entirely consistent with my position. I reiterate we are a parliamentary democracy not a plebiscite.

[B'stard Child]

London424 said:

soupdragon1 said:

London424 said:

soupdragon1 said:

SpeckledJim said:

soupdragon1 said:

The feet are under the table. Hardly going to up sticks and move to Germany for example, because if rates are harmonised, what's the benefit?

There are lots of good reasons to go to Germany. They were trumped by Ireland because Ireland is cheap.

If Ireland is no longer cheap, then maybe the good reasons to go to Germany become compelling.

(Or maybe, if the UK becomes cheap, they come here...?)

Who knows what the future holds. If UK leaves properly, it won't be able to claim a status as a European centre of operations for example, but at the same time, once UK leaves, it can do whatever the heck it wants in terms of attracting foreign business.

The relocation from Dublin to Germany doesn't stack up for me though, the relocation costs for no financial benefit that I can see. Maybe cheaper payroll perhaps, but I've no idea of pay structures in other nations.

I think overall it's a fairly moot point. If EU pressurise Ireland in terms of tax rates, it would create instability and the EU can't afford another unhappy nation. Ireland, now well and truly back on their feet financially, might end up wanting to leave the EU as well lol

Why won’t the UK be able to claim status as a European centre of operations? Is the country being moved?

Yes, it's being moved out of the EU.

Will the UK no longer be in Europe?

I honestly had no idea no wonder Brexit is going to cost so much................

Well if we are going to the trouble of moving the whole Island can we at least move it south where it's a little bit warmer - Please

[soupdragon1]

London424 said:

soupdragon1 said:

London424 said:

soupdragon1 said:

SpeckledJim said:

soupdragon1 said:

The feet are under the table. Hardly going to up sticks and move to Germany for example, because if rates are harmonised, what's the benefit?

There are lots of good reasons to go to Germany. They were trumped by Ireland because Ireland is cheap.

If Ireland is no longer cheap, then maybe the good reasons to go to Germany become compelling.

(Or maybe, if the UK becomes cheap, they come here...?)

Who knows what the future holds. If UK leaves properly, it won't be able to claim a status as a European centre of operations for example, but at the same time, once UK leaves, it can do whatever the heck it wants in terms of attracting foreign business.

The relocation from Dublin to Germany doesn't stack up for me though, the relocation costs for no financial benefit that I can see. Maybe cheaper payroll perhaps, but I've no idea of pay structures in other nations.

I think overall it's a fairly moot point. If EU pressurise Ireland in terms of tax rates, it would create instability and the EU can't afford another unhappy nation. Ireland, now well and truly back on their feet financially, might end up wanting to leave the EU as well lol

Why won’t the UK be able to claim status as a European centre of operations? Is the country being moved?

Yes, it's being moved out of the EU.

Will the UK no longer be in Europe?

I think we all know the difference between the geographical Europe and the EU, which I mistakenly referred to as Europe earlier. In the context it was written, I think it was clear I was referring to the EU.

[London424]

soupdragon1 said:

I think we all know the difference between the geographical Europe and the EU, which I mistakenly referred to as Europe earlier. In the context it was written, I think it was clear I was referring to the EU.

But no company refers to their EU operations. They refer to their European operations. So it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference.

[gooner1]

Nickgnome said:

If I had thought the referendum legitimate, then yes of course the outcome by the very nature would be democratic. Therefore any future referendum and the outcome therefrom would also be democratic.

If you recall your Roman history and schoolboy Latin then my reference to Plebs (Plebians) is entirely consistent with my position. I reiterate we are a parliamentary democracy not a plebiscite.

You don't think the Referendm was legal?

My schoolboy Latin? Pissofficus.

[Nickgnome]

gooner1 said:

Nickgnome said:

If I had thought the referendum legitimate, then yes of course the outcome by the very nature would be democratic. Therefore any future referendum and the outcome therefrom would also be democratic.

If you recall your Roman history and schoolboy Latin then my reference to Plebs (Plebians) is entirely consistent with my position. I reiterate we are a parliamentary democracy not a plebiscite.

You don't think the Referendm was legal?

My schoolboy Latin? Pissofficus.

I said Legitamate. Legal has a completely different meaning. Why ascribe to me a word I didn’t use?

If you didn’t do Latin/ Roman history you missed out on some great stuff.

Edited by Nickgnome on Wednesday 24th October 22:12