Discussion
Apache said:
Loves it.....looks a little, er, rural to me though. Mind you, the feeling of being away from it all appeals in a big way but I doubt there's any work there for me
Lots of it looks like it is in the late 1800's, early 1900's. Folks still using scythes in the fields, horse and carts, taking livestock onto the fields, family farms doing stuff by hand, and so on. I like it. It has character, and I like the simplicity. Saying that, I got faster internet than when I was in the states. A place of contradictions.TheHeretic said:
TotalZ4 said:
You wish.
You have any facts for your position? As for British people in the Costas its mainly criminals and try asking the Spanish if they like it.
FrankyH said:
85% of our country was White British way back in 2001, from the census. They have been allowing well over half a million in every single year since then. Quick maths tells us they already make up 20 odd %, and they are still letting more in.
No it wasn't and no they haven't, so your simple maths doesn't work. Rubbish in, rubbish out and all that.muffinmenace said:
You mean the oldies going there to live out their days? Not exactly going to join the social housing queue and live on the dole are they?
The oldies put a big strain on the local health infrastructure, especially as English speaking health staff have to be shipped in to deal with the Brits who can't be arsed to learn the local lingo. cymtriks said:
AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
*Where are millions of extra people going to live? Which green belts, flood plains, ancient heaths or woodlands will have to go to build the houses? Remember we are talking about several extra cities the size of Birmingham. Remember that this will be on top of the housing problems that we already have.
How about we knock some of the crusty old victorian terraces down, such as the one I used to live in in zone 2, in London, and build some proper modern, purpose built condos that would actually accommodate the people who want to live there. In which case, I imagine it would be quite possible to actually free up land.We are talking about several extra cities the size of Birmingham, your solution is hopelessly inadequate.
Land use - a purpose build block of condos might have 10 floors, let's assume 12 units a floor (based on the one I stayed in in Bangkok) that's 120 units in an area the size of 3 shabby old houses with maybe 7 or 8 bedsits each.
As for convincing occupants to leave, the economics of it would make developers pretty keen to put a compelling case.
As for the crappy council estates that are currently full of dole scroungers, no convincing to do - just give them a date and tell them they're getting cleansed.
Of course the first, and probably only step needed to achieve this would be throwing out our stupid, prescriptive and glacial paced planning process.
AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
*Which valleys will have to be flooded to make new reservoirs? Answer the question and let's hear the views of the people who live there.
Or we could have a couple of desalination plants.The same questions, always ducked.
AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
*We are told that it's a good thing because there are so many immigrant experts. Are there actually more doctors and scientists per head among immigrants than among those already here? If not then this is a false argument as they won't even be covering their own needs. If true then why isn't our really great (as evidenced by those stunning A level grades) education system generating our own experts? Is it ethical or sustainable to import more and more experts from abroad while failing to deal with our own inability to nurture enough ourselves?
Make sure it's more than the local population by requiring it for a visa.Why aren't we producing our own experts - I would hazard a guess that it's because the financial incentives are skewed by the NHS, punitive taxation and exorbitant housing costs.
cymtriks said:
- The work ethic issue keeps being mentioned. Why is this so noticeable? Why is the only solution to import workers from abroad? Why won't we correct something so obviously wrong with our systems?
cymtriks said:
- When assimilation is complete (don't hold your breath) what makes you think that the work ethic we hear so much about will still be there? After all the only solution is to give up on our own and import people. If it isn't the only solution then why are we still importing workers on this pretext after so long?
So long as politicians keep promising this people en masse are dumb enough to keep voting for it.
AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
- Given that it takes a long time and a lot of money to plan and build new roads, schools and hospitals how will our existing services cope until the the new worker's taxes start to work through the system. Will more debt be required? More PFI? Higher taxes for those already here to fill the gap? Remember that this is a rolling problem, not a one off event.
Again.
AJS- said:
cymtriks said:
*How much population is enough? 70 Million? 80 Million? 100 Million?
93,783,541Or any other arbitrary number you care to throw out there.
cymtriks said:
*Why can't we have a "one in - one out" or even "one in - two out" policy?
Why? Is the goal to have an empty country?
Why?
What would be wrong with 50 Million?
All of the issues I've mentioned will be made worse by increased population and many would be improved with less. At the moment our solution is unsustainable, it relies on an endless stream of new people not yet affected by the problems our systems create, to hide those problems and then still more people to hide the problem that they too will be affected.
Fresh water and road space might be more of a problem, but not insurmountable.
muffinmenace said:
elster said:
Not just old people, all generations now.
Got any links? I'm genuinely intrigued if they are http://www.byebyeblighty.com/spain/
stating 40% Under 45, 40% 45-64 So that leaves 20% 65+
I go to Spain a couple of times a year to do some work, and especially around the Gibraltar area in Andalucia there is lots of young Brits moving over there with work
TotalZ4 said:
elster said:
You do realise how many of those types of people come into the country?
Bugger all.
You wish.Bugger all.
I take it you don't know many people abroad to make that comment, as the UK certainly doesn't have an immigration problem.
France for example you will find whole towns that are full of immigrants and many illegal (an lot more than ours)
Bring some stats into the debate and we will see where they go This is the big flaw to the Immigration argument, is the whole I met a foreigner so it must be bad aspect and random individual cases that the press will use. Yet never any evidence of this huge immigration problem.
elster said:
the UK certainly doesn't have an immigration problem.
Perhaps not compared to some countries, but we sure do have lots of problems made much worse due to mass immigration.
Schools
Healthcare
Housing
Employment
Begging
Crime
Or do you honestly think immigration does not contibute to these problems?
rb5er said:
elster said:
the UK certainly doesn't have an immigration problem.
Perhaps not compared to some countries, but we sure do have lots of problems made much worse due to mass immigration.
Schools
Healthcare
Housing
Employment
Begging
Crime
Or do you honestly think immigration does not contibute to these problems?
Healthcare - Without the immigration the NHS would struggle to function
Housing - If you are meaning social housing, then that is more due to the lack of houses built over the past 20 years and they have been sold off prior. As for private tennants, where is the problem.
Employment - Without immigration then a lot of services could not be done. Manual unskilled work for one. There is no longer an appetite in most British workers to do the manual work that is deemed beneath people. This was a job section that previously employed miners as a mass cheap employment. However this sector is now labourers, factory workers, etc which many see is below them. Without the immigration a lot of businesses would not survive. It is also good to have a large amount of money invested back into the country with the immigration of skilled workers.
Begging - OK, I'll give you that one
Crime - There is absolutely no difference in crime between immigrants and UK nationals as a proportion of the community, except for 3.14keys
I don't honestly think we have a problem as we have as many people leaving as we do arriving.
The British have traditionally been travellers. There are umpteen holiday destinations around Europe and British holiday reps is one such industry, whether it be sun or snow, that attracts masses of Brits to live/work abroad.
I've worked with loads of contractors that have spent years working all round the world for periods of 2+ years, with families.
People from all sorts of industries, at all levels, move abroad to work all the time. Just in the same way that doctors and cleaners move here and I don't have a problem with it.
The problem I have is listening to TV interviews with 2nd generation immigrants moaning about the Poles and saying that they're taking 'our' jobs. Now that's irony.
The British have traditionally been travellers. There are umpteen holiday destinations around Europe and British holiday reps is one such industry, whether it be sun or snow, that attracts masses of Brits to live/work abroad.
I've worked with loads of contractors that have spent years working all round the world for periods of 2+ years, with families.
People from all sorts of industries, at all levels, move abroad to work all the time. Just in the same way that doctors and cleaners move here and I don't have a problem with it.
The problem I have is listening to TV interviews with 2nd generation immigrants moaning about the Poles and saying that they're taking 'our' jobs. Now that's irony.
elster said:
...
I take it you don't know many people abroad to make that comment, as the UK certainly doesn't have an immigration problem.
France for example you will find whole towns that are full of immigrants and many illegal (an lot more than ours)
Bring some stats into the debate and we will see where they go This is the big flaw to the Immigration argument, is the whole I met a foreigner so it must be bad aspect and random individual cases that the press will use. Yet never any evidence of this huge immigration problem.
Without wishing to sound argumentative (I'm genuinely interested), do you have the relative stats for "problematic" immigration across the EU?I take it you don't know many people abroad to make that comment, as the UK certainly doesn't have an immigration problem.
France for example you will find whole towns that are full of immigrants and many illegal (an lot more than ours)
Bring some stats into the debate and we will see where they go This is the big flaw to the Immigration argument, is the whole I met a foreigner so it must be bad aspect and random individual cases that the press will use. Yet never any evidence of this huge immigration problem.
I'm aware of places in France and Germany (amongst others) that have towns like those you mention, but do not know whether they are more prevalent than here or not. I'm not even sure if such things are legitimately measured (or can even be
measured).
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