Are labour antisemitic?

[anonymous-user]

fblm said:

It took a while but finally you admitted to liking life of brian.

Never found Monty Python or the film Life Of Brian funny, mind you I did go to a Comprehensive school and not a Public school.

[ATG]

simonrockman said:

85Carrera said:

I’ve not read the whole thread but opposition to the state of Israel and/or disapproval of the behaviour of the Israeli government (which, let’s face it, would result in economic sanctions if perpetrated by any other state) is NOT anti-semitism.

So saying that the Vatican should not exist isn't anti-Catholic?

Bad analogy. The Vatican is the HQ of all Roman Catholics. Not all Jews are Israeli.

The analogy would work if you'd said "So saying the Vatican shouldn't exist is anti-Christian?"

And the answer would obviously be "No, it isn't anti-Christian" ... evidence: the ravings of Dr Ian Paisley who liked to make it clear that (a) he was a Christian and (b) the Pope was the anti-Christ.

[psi310398]

It's not going to change many minds on the topic here, I suspect, but Howard Jacobson's piece in the Guardian offers some decent insights:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/07/howa...

[Gary C]

Hum

A while back, I saw footage of an old Palestinian woman being rescued from her home after the Israeli army had bombed the town for weeks.

I remember thinking she looked like someone rescued from Belsen and how proud the Jews from that camp would be to see a Jewish state causing such suffering.

Is that antisemitic ?

Now I know it's not that simple, but suppressing outcries of outrage for a state behind what happend isn't just.

Religion !, we would be better off without it.

[psi310398]

Gary C said:

Hum

A while back, I saw footage of an old Palestinian woman being rescued from her home after the Israeli army had bombed the town for weeks.

I remember thinking she looked like someone rescued from Belsen and how proud the Jews from that camp would be to see a Jewish state causing such suffering.

Is that antisemitic ?

Now I know it's not that simple, but suppressing outcries of outrage for a state behind what happend isn't just.

Religion !, we would be better off without it.

Many Jewish people would/will readily join you in denouncing some of the actions of the Israeli state and nobody sane would accuse you of antisemitism. And many Jewish people have made that precise point. But, perhaps a bit like leaving using the "N" word to black people, I'd consider it prudent to leave making such comparisons to the Jewish community, for reasons already covered in this thread. Others differ.

I think the key point is that it is perfectly valid to condemn the bad actions of people but it is another thing to condemn people for who they are.

[Gary C]

psi310398 said:

Gary C said:

Hum

A while back, I saw footage of an old Palestinian woman being rescued from her home after the Israeli army had bombed the town for weeks.

I remember thinking she looked like someone rescued from Belsen and how proud the Jews from that camp would be to see a Jewish state causing such suffering.

Is that antisemitic ?

Now I know it's not that simple, but suppressing outcries of outrage for a state behind what happend isn't just.

Religion !, we would be better off without it.

Many Jewish people would/will readily join you in denouncing some of the actions of the Israeli state and nobody sane would accuse you of antisemitism. And many Jewish people have made that precise point. But, perhaps a bit like leaving using the "N" word to black people, I'd consider it prudent to leave making such comparisons to the Jewish community, for reasons already covered in this thread. Others differ.

I think the key point is that it is perfectly valid to condemn the bad actions of people but it is another thing to condemn people for who they are.

Yes, well said.

When I made the comparison, it was purely an emotional response to the pictures and their similarities. We must never stop criticising a state when it's wrong, but I see your comparison with the N word. It has such connotations that it can trigger an emotional response.

[TooMany2cvs]

psi310398 said:

Many Jewish people would/will readily join you in denouncing some of the actions of the Israeli state and nobody sane would accuse you of antisemitism.

The IHRA definition is quite clear on this.
Criticise the actions of the Israeli government, in the same way as you would criticise any other government? Fair game. Labour are happy adopting this bit.
Criticise the very existence of Israel? Not fair game. This is the bit Labour don't want to adopt.

psi310398 said:

I think the key point is that it is perfectly valid to condemn the bad actions of people but it is another thing to condemn people for who they are.

^ This. With bells on.

[LoonyTunes]

psi310398 said:

I think the key point is that it is perfectly valid to condemn the bad actions of people but it is another thing to condemn people for who they are.

Best tell the non-white races of the world that 'White Male Privilege' is no longer to be used then because it upsets a lot of whites who don't share in that supposed or perceived 'privilege'.

[psi310398]

LoonyTunes said:

Best tell the non-white races of the world that 'White Male Privilege' is no longer to be used then because it upsets a lot of whites who don't share in that supposed or perceived 'privilege'.

I'd entirely agree that it is lazy and inaccurate labelling, and that the thinking behind it is quite as capable of causing injustices as other racist labelling.

[franki68]

Gary C said:

Hum

A while back, I saw footage of an old Palestinian woman being rescued from her home after the Israeli army had bombed the town for weeks.

I remember thinking she looked like someone rescued from Belsen and how proud the Jews from that camp would be to see a Jewish state causing such suffering.

Is that antisemitic ?

Now I know it's not that simple, but suppressing outcries of outrage for a state behind what happend isn't just.

Religion !, we would be better off without it.

Do you make the same comparison for example when you see say an old Syrian woman being pulled out of a bombed town in Syria ?

[Countdown]

franki68 said:

Gary C said:

Hum

A while back, I saw footage of an old Palestinian woman being rescued from her home after the Israeli army had bombed the town for weeks.

I remember thinking she looked like someone rescued from Belsen and how proud the Jews from that camp would be to see a Jewish state causing such suffering.

Is that antisemitic ?

Now I know it's not that simple, but suppressing outcries of outrage for a state behind what happend isn't just.

Religion !, we would be better off without it.

Do you make the same comparison for example when you see say an old Syrian woman being pulled out of a bombed town in Syria ?

That's an excellent comparison. Assad is generally recognised as a butcher for what he's done in Syria. However Netanyahu does the same thing in Gaza but it's OK because he's only defending israel's inalienable right to exist. It's hypocrisy of the highest order.

[otolith]

The Syrian civil war is a somewhat more complicated situation and not really comparable. If I were minded to draw such comparisons, I'd be looking at the lack of condemnation of Russia for its part, but really it's not the same.

[irocfan]

Countdown said:

That's an excellent comparison. Assad is generally recognised as a butcher for what he's done in Syria. However Netanyahu does the same thing in Gaza but it's OK because he's only defending israel's inalienable right to exist. It's hypocrisy of the highest order.

TBH it's a poor comparison, Assad doesn't care about incidental casualties. The Israelis may not be your favourite group but they're one of the most careful countries in that region WRT collateral damage

[Countdown]

irocfan said:

TBH it's a poor comparison, Assad doesn't care about incidental casualties. The Israelis may not be your favourite group but they're one of the most careful countries in that region WRT collateral damage

They're really not you know, except for PR purposes. There have been countless videos where Israeli soldiers have knowing shot civilians, but labelling them as HAMAS terrorists. It's a bit harder for them to explain when it's people like Rachel Corrie or Tom Hurndall. Have a read of the link below.

https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/...
Israeli army officer fires entire magazine into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl

Anyway, apologies for going OT, this is about labour anti-semitism, not Israel.

[franki68]

Countdown said:

They're really not you know, except for PR purposes. There have been countless videos where Israeli soldiers have knowing shot civilians, but labelling them as HAMAS terrorists. It's a bit harder for them to explain when it's people like Rachel Corrie or Tom Hurndall. Have a read of the link below.

https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/...
Israeli army officer fires entire magazine into a 13-year-old Palestinian girl

Anyway, apologies for going OT, this is about labour anti-semitism, not Israel.

Yes breaking the silence,an organization when asked to prove the testimonies it releases published ten,only 2 of which were found to be completely truthful.

But you are right about the topic going off course.

[franki68]

Countdown said:

That's an excellent comparison. Assad is generally recognised as a butcher for what he's done in Syria. However Netanyahu does the same thing in Gaza but it's OK because he's only defending israel's inalienable right to exist. It's hypocrisy of the highest order.

I am not aware of any nazi comparisons made about Assad or Syria .

[Octoposse]

Labour are now in an incredible political, ethical and psychological hole and I can’t see how - given the current leadership - they can get themselves out of it.

Some – and a growing proportion – of the accusations of anti-semitism are actually unfair. And every unfair and unfounded accusation is seized upon by the group that is effectively JC’s powerbase as evidence that it’s “all a plot to smear Jeremy” and “we’re not antisemitic, it’s just a Jewish / Blairite / Red Tory / media / Zionist conspiracy!”.

Their problem is that some of the real cases from a small-ish number of MPs, councillors and party officials over the past few years have been off-the-scale batst crazy and racist, and the party and it’s leadership’s reaction to them has been so woefully weak, or even sympathetic to the perpetrator.

Bottom line, any accusation of anti-semitism against Labour now seems credible in the eyes of the public, it’s open season for the press looking for more, and simultaneously powerful groups within Labour are getting even more determined not to do anything about it.

[Biker 1]

Octoposse said:

Labour are now in an incredible political, ethical and psychological hole and I can’t see how - given the current leadership - they can get themselves out of it.

Bottom line, any accusation of anti-semitism against Labour now seems credible in the eyes of the public, it’s open season for the press looking for more, and simultaneously powerful groups within Labour are getting even more determined not to do anything about it.

I guess they're just waiting for it all to blow over. Maybe some natural disaster, war, or other mega-newsworthy event will occur & they can sweep it all under the rug.
People have short memories

[TooMany2cvs]

The Momentum-acolyte friend I mentioned earlier has just shared something on FB from their local Labour candidate, about the NEC elections.

A random Momentumite said:

However problematic it might be for socialist Labour members to vote for Lansman on the NEC ballot, voting for other candidates like James Craigie will effectively allow a right winger into the NEC by default. Right wingers such as Luke Akehurst, who is virulently anti-Palestinian, a staunch member of Labour Friends of Israel, and hates Corbyn and our movement.
...
I am urging all socialists to keep to the #JC9 slate however much it pains them to do so as the alternative is much much worse than Lansman.

Sorry, what? It's "problematic" to vote for the founder of Momentum, Jon Lansman, because he suggested Willsman's rant was beyond the pale? Not only is Willsman clearly beyond reproach, but have a read of that denouncement of a "right-winger"...

Fertheloveofgawd.

[The Surveyor]

Biker 1 said:

Octoposse said:

Labour are now in an incredible political, ethical and psychological hole and I can’t see how - given the current leadership - they can get themselves out of it.

Bottom line, any accusation of anti-semitism against Labour now seems credible in the eyes of the public, it’s open season for the press looking for more, and simultaneously powerful groups within Labour are getting even more determined not to do anything about it.

I guess they're just waiting for it all to blow over. Maybe some natural disaster, war, or other mega-newsworthy event will occur & they can sweep it all under the rug.
People have short memories

Do people really care in enough numbers for it to matter?

The hard-line Corbyn supporters won't be swayed by the 'right wing press stirring things up', those who wouldn't vote for a Corbyn Labour still won't, and those in between will be swayed more by each parties economic policy than this issue.

It shows a lack of leadership, it shows a lack of integrity, but that isn't a Labour only problem.