The Future of Power Generation in Great Britain
Discussion
V8 Fettler said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
All this storm in a tea cup... just about 25% of the Grid is being fed from wind at the mo.
That's because it's a bit windy Paddy. What happens when there isn't much wind?
V8 Fettler said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
All this storm in a tea cup... just about 25% of the Grid is being fed from wind at the mo.
That's because it's a bit windy Paddy. What happens when there isn't much wind?Paddy_N_Murphy said:
We have talked about intermittency, about frequency balancing and battery storage lots here already.
'Insiders' say it is all manageable with the grid in place. Others say that as more wind is installed in further offshore locations the intermittency will become less of an issue. Others have shown reports of the Battery storage deployed and working (rather than depleting in 0.3 os a second).
In other words - its not as big an issue as you love to make out.
Wind only pushing 18% now
All the things you talk about cost money, also there in the future if they happen at all, all the costs along with backup need costing into wind generated electricity, to give a true cost of wind generated electricity.'Insiders' say it is all manageable with the grid in place. Others say that as more wind is installed in further offshore locations the intermittency will become less of an issue. Others have shown reports of the Battery storage deployed and working (rather than depleting in 0.3 os a second).
In other words - its not as big an issue as you love to make out.
Wind only pushing 18% now
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
You were saying about prices, storage and alike :
"In a new report from Xcel Energy, the company reported unprecedented low bids for wind and solar with storage. Last year, Xcel announced it would close 660 MW worth of coal-fired power capacity at Comanche Generating Station. Xcel subsidiary Public Service Company issue a request for proposals for wind, solar, natural gas, and storage.
Wind alone was bid at an astonishingly low median price of $18.10/MWh, smashing previous records. A total of 17,380 MW of wind capacity was bid with this as the median price.
The big surprise, however, was the very low bid for wind and solar plus storage. Wind and solar plus battery storage had seven bids for a total of 4,048 MWh at a median bid of $30.60. The energy storage projects ranged from 4 to 10 hours in duration."
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/11/wind-solar-st...
Presumably the 4 - 10 hours storage is so that it can supply the rated 4,048 MW (the 'h' is a typo?) output 24/7?"In a new report from Xcel Energy, the company reported unprecedented low bids for wind and solar with storage. Last year, Xcel announced it would close 660 MW worth of coal-fired power capacity at Comanche Generating Station. Xcel subsidiary Public Service Company issue a request for proposals for wind, solar, natural gas, and storage.
Wind alone was bid at an astonishingly low median price of $18.10/MWh, smashing previous records. A total of 17,380 MW of wind capacity was bid with this as the median price.
The big surprise, however, was the very low bid for wind and solar plus storage. Wind and solar plus battery storage had seven bids for a total of 4,048 MWh at a median bid of $30.60. The energy storage projects ranged from 4 to 10 hours in duration."
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/11/wind-solar-st...
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Why will the cost for backup go ‘up’ - see the post above
Why will more backup be required with more Turbines.
More Turbines in different locations prevents the scenarios currently where Turbines are clustered regionally (South East Coast)
How does you reasoning work?
So the north east has no turbines ? The problem could end up as overproduction and paying to not produce electricity, you only solve the problem if you have massive overcapacity, we presently have turbines from Scotland down to the south coast, yet when a high pressure sits over the UK I have seen wind generation down to 0.4 GW , will more turbines create more problems than they solve.Why will more backup be required with more Turbines.
More Turbines in different locations prevents the scenarios currently where Turbines are clustered regionally (South East Coast)
How does you reasoning work?
PRTVR said:
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
Why will the cost for backup go ‘up’ - see the post above
Why will more backup be required with more Turbines.
More Turbines in different locations prevents the scenarios currently where Turbines are clustered regionally (South East Coast)
How does you reasoning work?
So the north east has no turbines ? The problem could end up as overproduction and paying to not produce electricity, you only solve the problem if you have massive overcapacity, we presently have turbines from Scotland down to the south coast, yet when a high pressure sits over the UK I have seen wind generation down to 0.4 GW , will more turbines create more problems than they solve.Why will more backup be required with more Turbines.
More Turbines in different locations prevents the scenarios currently where Turbines are clustered regionally (South East Coast)
How does you reasoning work?
Remember this? Top Greener than Green Google Engineers and Scientists say Renewable Energy ‘Simply Won’t Work’ ... and remember that these were committed believers deploying their faith as well as their academic credentials in order to solve the "problem" of non-existent manmadeup global warming via unreliables.
Commentary posted n times around the failure spelt out by Google RElessthanC said:
The energy cost of manufacturing the components of the renewable power facilities is far too close to the total recoverable energy – the facilities never, or just barely, produce enough energy to balance the budget of what was consumed in their construction. This leads to a runaway cycle of constructing more and more renewable plants simply to produce the energy required to manufacture and maintain renewable energy plants – an obvious practical absurdity.
An obvious energetic, financial and practical absurdity which has unreliables activists and faithful followers digging out the biggest cognitive blinkers they can find.EROEI gets even worse with storage. Madness prevails but there's no end in sight.
(ETA: RE<C spelt out in the quote above as the 'less than' symbol screws up the quote)
Edited by turbobloke on Monday 15th January 11:35
It is very obvious that the only solution that building ever more turbines solves is bonus provision for renewables providers.
With ever more 'capacity - fabled' the differential between peak and trough (trough being always close to zilch regardless) will place even more stress on the ability of fossil- fuelled backup to ramp up on demand.
Solutions will have to consist of some form of long-term energy reservoir (weeks not days, days not hours) replenished by wind whilst wind is trying to generate demand.
So fanciful is this, that you may as well have a shed of diesel and label it fusion.
With ever more 'capacity - fabled' the differential between peak and trough (trough being always close to zilch regardless) will place even more stress on the ability of fossil- fuelled backup to ramp up on demand.
Solutions will have to consist of some form of long-term energy reservoir (weeks not days, days not hours) replenished by wind whilst wind is trying to generate demand.
So fanciful is this, that you may as well have a shed of diesel and label it fusion.
Over Supply means what?
You spend 6 times the plated capacity expectation to try to cover the low and and have, at peak output, far more generation than can be accommodated?
This, repeated worldwide where possible, is a good use of planetary resources?
Very low bids all round sounds like Carillion economics.
Pitch cheap, bid for services that cannot be abandoned and assume that someone, somewhere will pick up the bill as and when it all goes bad.
Can that be the way forward?
You spend 6 times the plated capacity expectation to try to cover the low and and have, at peak output, far more generation than can be accommodated?
This, repeated worldwide where possible, is a good use of planetary resources?
Very low bids all round sounds like Carillion economics.
Pitch cheap, bid for services that cannot be abandoned and assume that someone, somewhere will pick up the bill as and when it all goes bad.
Can that be the way forward?
LongQ said:
Over Supply means what?
You spend 6 times the plated capacity expectation to try to cover the low and and have, at peak output, far more generation than can be accommodated?
This, repeated worldwide where possible, is a good use of planetary resources?
Very low bids all round sounds like Carillion economics.
Pitch cheap, bid for services that cannot be abandoned and assume that someone, somewhere will pick up the bill as and when it all goes bad.
Can that be the way forward?
Stop making sense - the assylum was hi-jacked a long time ago!You spend 6 times the plated capacity expectation to try to cover the low and and have, at peak output, far more generation than can be accommodated?
This, repeated worldwide where possible, is a good use of planetary resources?
Very low bids all round sounds like Carillion economics.
Pitch cheap, bid for services that cannot be abandoned and assume that someone, somewhere will pick up the bill as and when it all goes bad.
Can that be the way forward?
The rest are along for the ride and can only spectate in ever increasing incredulity.
What was that about Nero?
Toltec said:
No, but it is available on demand and it cost a lot more than the 70hp which would be adequate to cruise at 70mph.
Being "available on demand" is the whole point. With wind it isn't. As already said, when it drops to zero, when attempting to make progress, you're stuffed.
rolando said:
Toltec said:
No, but it is available on demand and it cost a lot more than the 70hp which would be adequate to cruise at 70mph.
Being "available on demand" is the whole point. With wind it isn't. As already said, when it drops to zero, when attempting to make progress, you're stuffed.Actually, it is not feasible given current tech since there is no means of storing surplus energy (should there be surplus) sufficient to supply demand on full chat over a period of days.
An inconvenient truth which renewables inc are still in denial over.
Fusion may come sooner - and that is not a realistic proposition in the foreseeable.
An inconvenient truth which renewables inc are still in denial over.
Fusion may come sooner - and that is not a realistic proposition in the foreseeable.
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