HS2, whats the current status ?
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
Another 20 year hiatus in UK high-speed rail construction impending.
And we wonder why we are late and over budget when every single time we commence a major infrastructure project we disperse the workforce, retire the experts and export the intellectual property and then have to rebuild all that again and again.
HS2 should have been the start of a UK wide high speed network, now it's another false start.
Yup. Lessons learned are not applied to the next project as there never is one.And we wonder why we are late and over budget when every single time we commence a major infrastructure project we disperse the workforce, retire the experts and export the intellectual property and then have to rebuild all that again and again.
HS2 should have been the start of a UK wide high speed network, now it's another false start.
Countdown said:
Pre-pandemic I was a regular on the WCML from Manchester to Euston. Cost-wise the car was cheaper every time. However if you expect to work at either end then the train made far far more sense. If I had a full day meeting and didnt want to go down the night before I used to catch the 5:55 from Piccadilly, get to Eustin by 8:10 and then normally be in the centre of London about 10 minutes later, fairly fresh and ready for work.
It would be a long day but taking the car would have been infinitely more tiring.
Good luck on getting anywhere near Piccadilly for a 05.55 train by public transport from pretty much anywhere in GM or the surrounding counties It would be a long day but taking the car would have been infinitely more tiring.
The first train from my local station leaves at 0623 and having to change at Vic arrives at 0807 at Picc (30 miles from Picc)
To arrive in time for an 0555 dep I’d have to leave the night before and stay in a hotel!
The first bus leaves at 0452 and arrives at Chorlton St at 0605
And I’d have to drive to the bus/train station .. yet I could drive to Man CC in about 40 mins
anonymous said:
[redacted]
About 20 miles away from Piccadilly. Driving in at that time is actually quite enjoyable (the roads are fairly deserted and takes 30 minutes). I park in the Council carpark on Sheffield Street (£3 for 24 hours 
)I'm not sure where HS2 stops. The main attraction for me is the possibility of additional passenger trains between Picc and Euston. Even travelling at Silly o'clock it's busy and travelling at peak times means you risk standing for most of the trip.
It may be cheaper to go by car today but give it ten years and many city centres will have low emission zones and tarifs like London. Some may go so far as to ban cars altogether in the centre.
Given the inevitable rise in electric vehicle ownership, that should be OK but, as the government is already looking at roadpricing to make up for the loss of VED and fuel taxes, motoring costs are likely to rise somewhat and, possibly, make the train the cheaper option.
To me, the problem is that this government, like many before, takes the view that rail travel is not part of our national infrastructure and, thus, pretty well essential to everyone. Rather, it takes the view that rail travel is a lifestyle option to be, somehow, monetized and profited from.
By 2030, I'll be driving very little I imagine - I'll be nearly 80 - so train travel will play a much bigger role in my life and if it stays as bad as it is, I won't be going far from York very often.
Given the inevitable rise in electric vehicle ownership, that should be OK but, as the government is already looking at roadpricing to make up for the loss of VED and fuel taxes, motoring costs are likely to rise somewhat and, possibly, make the train the cheaper option.
To me, the problem is that this government, like many before, takes the view that rail travel is not part of our national infrastructure and, thus, pretty well essential to everyone. Rather, it takes the view that rail travel is a lifestyle option to be, somehow, monetized and profited from.
By 2030, I'll be driving very little I imagine - I'll be nearly 80 - so train travel will play a much bigger role in my life and if it stays as bad as it is, I won't be going far from York very often.
Evanivitch said:
Another 20 year hiatus in UK high-speed rail construction impending.
And we wonder why we are late and over budget when every single time we commence a major infrastructure project we disperse the workforce, retire the experts and export the intellectual property and then have to rebuild all that again and again.
HS2 should have been the start of a UK wide high speed network, now it's another false start.
This was the point I was trying to point out earlier. Politicians are all about the what should be done and less about the means. And we wonder why we are late and over budget when every single time we commence a major infrastructure project we disperse the workforce, retire the experts and export the intellectual property and then have to rebuild all that again and again.
HS2 should have been the start of a UK wide high speed network, now it's another false start.
To put HS2 into car terms HS2 is like Tesla trying to build the Model 3 at scale first.
The ambitious strategy should have been a fully integrated long term plan to re-make the UK's rail network as a high speed system like the Shinkansen.
The practical start point should have been a £3-5 billion high speed line with as few challenges as possible. It should be expected to go wrong, to be inefficient but it is relatively cheap way to upskill industry and the HS2 organisation itself. The net result is that we are better at planning, contracting and building high speed rail when we do get to trying to build the worlds highest capacity high speed line.
Talksteer said:
This was the point I was trying to point out earlier. Politicians are all about the what should be done and less about the means.
To put HS2 into car terms HS2 is like Tesla trying to build the Model 3 at scale first.
The ambitious strategy should have been a fully integrated long term plan to re-make the UK's rail network as a high speed system like the Shinkansen.
The practical start point should have been a £3-5 billion high speed line with as few challenges as possible. It should be expected to go wrong, to be inefficient but it is relatively cheap way to upskill industry and the HS2 organisation itself. The net result is that we are better at planning, contracting and building high speed rail when we do get to trying to build the worlds highest capacity high speed line.
We did that, it was called High Speed 1. The problem was, we then sat on hands for 10 years, with some of the skills going into CrossRail, after a few years gap, and some going into GWML electrification, but nothing into High Speed.To put HS2 into car terms HS2 is like Tesla trying to build the Model 3 at scale first.
The ambitious strategy should have been a fully integrated long term plan to re-make the UK's rail network as a high speed system like the Shinkansen.
The practical start point should have been a £3-5 billion high speed line with as few challenges as possible. It should be expected to go wrong, to be inefficient but it is relatively cheap way to upskill industry and the HS2 organisation itself. The net result is that we are better at planning, contracting and building high speed rail when we do get to trying to build the worlds highest capacity high speed line.
Murph7355 said:
Possibly.
Would the case for going ahead stack up if the 'actual costs' were used.....?
I guess it depends on what metrics you use on your cost benefit analysis. I'm working on a job where the cost (set by numerous previous examples and agreed by everyone) is xxxmillion, funding is half that and we are told to 'make it work'.Would the case for going ahead stack up if the 'actual costs' were used.....?
Everyone agrees the scheme is vital and benefical to the community, but we are told 'that's all there is'. It's a common story tbh.
monkfish1 said:
Yes. Incompetence. And gold plating.
I'll stick my neck out here. HS2 wont be done for less than 250billion.
If indeed it gets done at all.
AIUI the bits under construction will likely be built for less than the headline price, as the headline price includes the cost of underwriting any design and construction faults that occur in the life of the installation, unsurprisingly adding what is in effect a manufacturer's warranty onto a public works bill has caused it to grow like topsy given the nominal life will be 50 years or something. Once upon a time governments were not stupid enough to ask for such things.I'll stick my neck out here. HS2 wont be done for less than 250billion.
If indeed it gets done at all.
Digga said:
Get three quote and go for the cheapest.”
Then wonder why it f
ks up and costs more in the mid to long run.
It’s endemic in UK government and corporate thinking. One of the biggest issues is projects ‘run’ by bean counters rather than technicians.
100%. We lost a job (proposed new bypass) that we had done all the stage 3 work for because we priced it knowing all the constraints and issues having done all the preliminary work.Then wonder why it f
ks up and costs more in the mid to long run.It’s endemic in UK government and corporate thinking. One of the biggest issues is projects ‘run’ by bean counters rather than technicians.
Council who was the client loved us and wanted us to carry on, but we were undercut by a third by a speculative bid. We even got an email of regret from the client PM. The whole system is mucked up.
vonuber said:
Digga said:
Get three quote and go for the cheapest.”
Then wonder why it fks up and costs more in the mid to long run.
It’s endemic in UK government and corporate thinking. One of the biggest issues is projects ‘run’ by bean counters rather than technicians.
100%. We lost a job (proposed new bypass) that we had done all the stage 3 work for because we priced it knowing all the constraints and issues having done all the preliminary work.Then wonder why it f
ks up and costs more in the mid to long run.It’s endemic in UK government and corporate thinking. One of the biggest issues is projects ‘run’ by bean counters rather than technicians.
Council who was the client loved us and wanted us to carry on, but we were undercut by a third by a speculative bid. We even got an email of regret from the client PM. The whole system is mucked up.
vonuber said:
Murph7355 said:
Possibly.
Would the case for going ahead stack up if the 'actual costs' were used.....?
I guess it depends on what metrics you use on your cost benefit analysis. I'm working on a job where the cost (set by numerous previous examples and agreed by everyone) is xxxmillion, funding is half that and we are told to 'make it work'.Would the case for going ahead stack up if the 'actual costs' were used.....?
Everyone agrees the scheme is vital and benefical to the community, but we are told 'that's all there is'. It's a common story tbh.
If they come back with the classic "champagne taste and beer budget", they should again be assisted - pay for champagne or accept beer.
If they aren't prepared to do this and you are certain of your calcs, you walk. And then charge them double when the s
t hits the fan and they need digging out 
Every failing programme that I've been asked to get involved with has been poor strategy/objectives/budgeting at the root. People who quite often should know better kill these pieces of work before they ever properly begin.
rlw said:
It may be cheaper to go by car today but give it ten years and many city centres will have low emission zones and tarifs like London. Some may go so far as to ban cars altogether in the centre.
Given the inevitable rise in electric vehicle ownership, that should be OK but, as the government is already looking at roadpricing to make up for the loss of VED and fuel taxes, motoring costs are likely to rise somewhat and, possibly, make the train the cheaper option.
Yes - it scares me when people make a thing about it being cheaper by car. There's a very easy way to fix that!Given the inevitable rise in electric vehicle ownership, that should be OK but, as the government is already looking at roadpricing to make up for the loss of VED and fuel taxes, motoring costs are likely to rise somewhat and, possibly, make the train the cheaper option.
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