Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 4
Discussion
Ridgemont said:
isaldiri said:
_Al_ said:
isaldiri said:
_Al_ said:
To what end?
Being less obviously two faced and hypocritical for starters? You asked for an alternative - I replied. In any case, you are perhaps the one I should be asking as to why you wanted an 'improved alternative' in the first place because the world is what it is and not going to change being self serving anytime soon.Did the UK have a moral motive in WW2: no, options re war or appeasement were equally valid. Once continued self determination kicked it it was existential, but all politicians were informed by dint of being British (or French or Norwegian) regarding their path through it. Their moral compasses played a large role in that from acceptance, through collaboration to preserve an essential component of a nation, to
resistance. Moral and national imperatives can intertwine.
As Churchill made clear, the path of British diplomacy was not a simple national interest: the alternatives were very dark indeed. And that plays out now:
What price a full fledged confrontation between NATO and Russia now?
How far do we let Israel do what it does?
Are we prepared to confront China over its imperialism?
Neverminding over Taiwan but in almost certainty the war to come re the South China Sea?
These may be real politic questions of national interest but also not all actors are benevolent whether it be on western relative values or absolute behaviours.
Every nation tempers their enthusiasm for military support on realism, as much as morals.
We live in an imperfect world. The UN never helped me stand up to bullies at school. I had to learn the hard way.
Digga said:
hat's all true, but WW2 put the UK in an incredibly perilous situation, both during the conflict and, financially, afterwards.
Every nation tempers their enthusiasm for military support on realism, as much as morals.
We live in an imperfect world. The UN never helped me stand up to bullies at school. I had to learn the hard way.
The idea that moral and national imperatives can intertwine is a nice fantasy but as far as nation states are concerned, morals are only useful to wheel out as propaganda when they can be used to bash 'the bad guys' but are quickly ignored by us when it's convenient to turn a blind eye to some of the things we might have been preaching about to others. Every nation tempers their enthusiasm for military support on realism, as much as morals.
We live in an imperfect world. The UN never helped me stand up to bullies at school. I had to learn the hard way.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Only if we follow their plans?
Their plan is to keep as much of the world as free as possible and keep trade free. Britian, as a Island that can't feed itself and has no natural resources, needs free trade more than pretty much anywhere else.
Despots want to end free trade and freedom because they don't want freedom spreading to their countries
If (when?) America goes isolationist Iran, Russia and China are going to fill that void very fast and it will be miserable (fatal?) for us.
We know now America saved us from Russia for 50 years. They're keeping the Gulf open for shipping for us.
I've spent most of my life wishing America would stop being world policeman but the last 2 years have show us how essential they have been amd how it's all going to fall apart when they step away.
South and North Korea tell us everything we need to know about which side we should want to prevail.
Yes only if we follow their plans.Their plan is to keep as much of the world as free as possible and keep trade free. Britian, as a Island that can't feed itself and has no natural resources, needs free trade more than pretty much anywhere else.
Despots want to end free trade and freedom because they don't want freedom spreading to their countries
If (when?) America goes isolationist Iran, Russia and China are going to fill that void very fast and it will be miserable (fatal?) for us.
We know now America saved us from Russia for 50 years. They're keeping the Gulf open for shipping for us.
I've spent most of my life wishing America would stop being world policeman but the last 2 years have show us how essential they have been amd how it's all going to fall apart when they step away.
South and North Korea tell us everything we need to know about which side we should want to prevail.
Currently the US has, pretty much, a veto on western military action above a certain size.
If European nato were to gain enough equipment/people that it could operate on a large scale with no help from the US, the US loses its veto.
We are broadly aligned but not always.
borcy said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Only if we follow their plans?
Their plan is to keep as much of the world as free as possible and keep trade free. Britian, as a Island that can't feed itself and has no natural resources, needs free trade more than pretty much anywhere else.
Despots want to end free trade and freedom because they don't want freedom spreading to their countries
If (when?) America goes isolationist Iran, Russia and China are going to fill that void very fast and it will be miserable (fatal?) for us.
We know now America saved us from Russia for 50 years. They're keeping the Gulf open for shipping for us.
I've spent most of my life wishing America would stop being world policeman but the last 2 years have show us how essential they have been amd how it's all going to fall apart when they step away.
South and North Korea tell us everything we need to know about which side we should want to prevail.
Yes only if we follow their plans.Their plan is to keep as much of the world as free as possible and keep trade free. Britian, as a Island that can't feed itself and has no natural resources, needs free trade more than pretty much anywhere else.
Despots want to end free trade and freedom because they don't want freedom spreading to their countries
If (when?) America goes isolationist Iran, Russia and China are going to fill that void very fast and it will be miserable (fatal?) for us.
We know now America saved us from Russia for 50 years. They're keeping the Gulf open for shipping for us.
I've spent most of my life wishing America would stop being world policeman but the last 2 years have show us how essential they have been amd how it's all going to fall apart when they step away.
South and North Korea tell us everything we need to know about which side we should want to prevail.
Currently the US has, pretty much, a veto on western military action above a certain size.
If European nato were to gain enough equipment/people that it could operate on a large scale with no help from the US, the US loses its veto.
We are broadly aligned but not always.
I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
isaldiri said:
Digga said:
hat's all true, but WW2 put the UK in an incredibly perilous situation, both during the conflict and, financially, afterwards.
Every nation tempers their enthusiasm for military support on realism, as much as morals.
We live in an imperfect world. The UN never helped me stand up to bullies at school. I had to learn the hard way.
The idea that moral and national imperatives can intertwine is a nice fantasy but as far as nation states are concerned, morals are only useful to wheel out as propaganda when they can be used to bash 'the bad guys' but are quickly ignored by us when it's convenient to turn a blind eye to some of the things we might have been preaching about to others. Every nation tempers their enthusiasm for military support on realism, as much as morals.
We live in an imperfect world. The UN never helped me stand up to bullies at school. I had to learn the hard way.
Historically, see Field Marshal Douglas Haig as a prime example, it was a little bit easier, morally, to send men into service. What we now know about mechanised war, PTSD etc. we did not, so much, back in the first half of the last century.
BikeBikeBIke said:
I'm all for another benign democracy becoming the world power and picking up the tab for keeping us all free and fed.
I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
We may well have to do more ourselves or do deals with countries we'd prefer not to. But then we've always done the latter, it's nothing new. I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
borcy said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
I'm all for another benign democracy becoming the world power and picking up the tab for keeping us all free and fed.
I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
We may well have to do more ourselves or do deals with countries we'd prefer not to. But then we've always done the latter, it's nothing new. I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
Russia isn't offering Ukraine a deal. Ukraine is an "bad" example to their people so it's being destroyed so the Russian people don't get ideas.
BikeBikeBIke said:
borcy said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
I'm all for another benign democracy becoming the world power and picking up the tab for keeping us all free and fed.
I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
We may well have to do more ourselves or do deals with countries we'd prefer not to. But then we've always done the latter, it's nothing new. I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
Russia isn't offering Ukraine a deal. Ukraine is an "bad" example to their people so it's being destroyed so the Russian people don't get ideas.
I agree there is no real deal with Russia that would last long.
borcy said:
I get the feeling he is going to stop documenting the losses soon, he had a meltdown the other week and I suspect all these videos he has to watch is really taking its toll on him.borcy said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
borcy said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
I'm all for another benign democracy becoming the world power and picking up the tab for keeping us all free and fed.
I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
We may well have to do more ourselves or do deals with countries we'd prefer not to. But then we've always done the latter, it's nothing new. I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
Russia isn't offering Ukraine a deal. Ukraine is an "bad" example to their people so it's being destroyed so the Russian people don't get ideas.
I agree there is no real deal with Russia that would last long.
If you'd told me the UK could be blockaded by Iran 6 months ago I'd have laughed. They nearly did it in a weekend! If it wasn't for America the Gulf would be closed and the whole are would be Islamists largely ruled by Iran.
We can quibble the detail, but when America walk away from the world Policeman role the people walking into the vacuum are going to be very bad for us indeed. There isn't a liberal superpower ready to take over, quite the opposite.
BikeBikeBIke said:
borcy said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
borcy said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
I'm all for another benign democracy becoming the world power and picking up the tab for keeping us all free and fed.
I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
We may well have to do more ourselves or do deals with countries we'd prefer not to. But then we've always done the latter, it's nothing new. I don't think it's gonna go down like they though. I think we can clearly see the regional powers that are going to fill the void. Iran in the Gulf states. Russia in Europe and China in their neck of the woods. ....and as we can already see they're going to run the world for the benefit of their leaders, not for us.
Russia isn't offering Ukraine a deal. Ukraine is an "bad" example to their people so it's being destroyed so the Russian people don't get ideas.
I agree there is no real deal with Russia that would last long.
If you'd told me the UK could be blockaded by Iran 6 months ago I'd have laughed. They nearly did it in a weekend! If it wasn't for America the Gulf would be closed and the whole are would be Islamists largely ruled by Iran.
We can quibble the detail, but when America walk away from the world Policeman role the people walking into the vacuum are going to be very bad for us indeed. There isn't a liberal superpower ready to take over, quite the opposite.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/04/06/e...
News from a week ago, not sure if it's already been posted.
News from a week ago, not sure if it's already been posted.
borcy said:
Yes only if we follow their plans.
Currently the US has, pretty much, a veto on western military action above a certain size.
If European nato were to gain enough equipment/people that it could operate on a large scale with no help from the US, the US loses its veto.
We are broadly aligned but not always.
The only way the European member states could effectively do that is if they either all massively increase their spending to the levels of the US or Poland (over 3%)…or they could in theory do it cheaper by cooperating much more on weapons systems. Look at how many different artillery systems there are…utter madness.Currently the US has, pretty much, a veto on western military action above a certain size.
If European nato were to gain enough equipment/people that it could operate on a large scale with no help from the US, the US loses its veto.
We are broadly aligned but not always.
Russia has sends a navy frigate into the region of conflict between Israel and Iran, where is the US ship in the conflict between Ukraine and Russia.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1888214/russi...
Jorden shoots down missiles aimed at Israel while Poland sits back and watches when Russia fires missiles over its territory
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1888214/russi...
Jorden shoots down missiles aimed at Israel while Poland sits back and watches when Russia fires missiles over its territory
https://twitter.com/RealCynicalFox/status/17799148...
More information from the WP about US unease on oil refinery attacks.
More information from the WP about US unease on oil refinery attacks.
Oliver Hardy said:
Russia has sends a navy frigate into the region of conflict between Israel and Iran, where is the US ship in the conflict between Ukraine and Russia.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1888214/russi...
Jorden shoots down missiles aimed at Israel while Poland sits back and watches when Russia fires missiles over its territory
Has it made it there? https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1888214/russi...
Jorden shoots down missiles aimed at Israel while Poland sits back and watches when Russia fires missiles over its territory
Will probably breakdown
The idea that the US holds the moral high ground on this with either Europe or Ukraine is a bit rich. North America has its own supply of oil and gas.
If anything they will profit from it. This has illustrated the idea that if you stop the supply of arms the Russians will seek a peaceful status quo.
There are no F-16s from the US, the Patriot missile systems come from Germany, other than the 30 Bradleys and 6 Abrams, 60% of the funding for Ukraine has gone to US military contracts, not actual equipment in Ukraine. You get alot of Americans online or at least bots leaning into the idea that the Americans are personally paying for all the war going on.
It is worth noting that the 5 major Military manufacturers are private companies, Lockheed Martin bankrolled the Patriot missile system production because they saw demand.
Even if Trump or others politically don't want to contribute from their stocks, there is always the aspect that others will simply buy it and the deeper problem for US defence is Korea, Europe and even Australia have the depth to manufacture it because they don't have the capability or capacity themselves.
This idea that the money in America will go to build hospitals and state infrastructure is also an obscure one ideologically as that is socialism in the eyes of a certain libertarian ilk.
If anything they will profit from it. This has illustrated the idea that if you stop the supply of arms the Russians will seek a peaceful status quo.
There are no F-16s from the US, the Patriot missile systems come from Germany, other than the 30 Bradleys and 6 Abrams, 60% of the funding for Ukraine has gone to US military contracts, not actual equipment in Ukraine. You get alot of Americans online or at least bots leaning into the idea that the Americans are personally paying for all the war going on.
It is worth noting that the 5 major Military manufacturers are private companies, Lockheed Martin bankrolled the Patriot missile system production because they saw demand.
Even if Trump or others politically don't want to contribute from their stocks, there is always the aspect that others will simply buy it and the deeper problem for US defence is Korea, Europe and even Australia have the depth to manufacture it because they don't have the capability or capacity themselves.
This idea that the money in America will go to build hospitals and state infrastructure is also an obscure one ideologically as that is socialism in the eyes of a certain libertarian ilk.
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