Army Abuse of Iraqi 'Appalling'
Discussion
Marvin Hagler said:
No amount of stress turns a human being into an animal who tortures bound prisoners. If they are that stressed then they should not be looking after captured fighters or civillians and extreme torture brutality and you know it.
Its you who is talking out of your bottom, as Baha Musa was innocent. Your brain however has classed him in the same group as a 'ruthless killer' which he was not. oh what a silly brain you have!
No, you're right, it shouldn't of happend, but when you have an Army that is already at full stretch, mistakes happen and certain soldiers shouldn't have been put in those positions within the gaol. Unless you've been in the sorts of situations then you really shouldn't comment. Particularly cherry picking things that have happend on one side of the conflict. I don't hear you shouting about the horrors the other side have carried out and are still carrying out, without any recourse to justice. You may think that a year in prison is a light sentence, then you have never been to a military prison. The perportrators will also, most likely, be given a dishonourable discharge from the Army too, which will muck up the rest of their lives.Its you who is talking out of your bottom, as Baha Musa was innocent. Your brain however has classed him in the same group as a 'ruthless killer' which he was not. oh what a silly brain you have!
AshVX220 said:
FFS, you need to have a serious think about the situation out there and have a word with yourself.
Who's going to look after PoW in a combat zone then, if not the soldiers who are there doing the fighting? The locals? Excellent, they'll all be released within half an hour, innocent or otherwise.
I'm afraid you have no idea what it's like for those lads out there and to judge from the comfort of your arm chair, like all the other bbc loving do-gooders in this country, I find sickening.
I never said locals will look after them, you said that. Read what I said.Who's going to look after PoW in a combat zone then, if not the soldiers who are there doing the fighting? The locals? Excellent, they'll all be released within half an hour, innocent or otherwise.
I'm afraid you have no idea what it's like for those lads out there and to judge from the comfort of your arm chair, like all the other bbc loving do-gooders in this country, I find sickening.
Anyhow, your right I am an 'armchair' guy, not a soldier. I have no idea what the soldiers go through, I feel sad that they lose their colleagues, i feel sad they are away from their families who they might no see again. HOWEVER, I feel sickened that they could commit torture on innocent people like Baha Musa (a point which you ignored in my previous post, to go on about something completely different). I have no sympathy for an army which allows this, and a justice sysem which passes a joke sentence on perpetrator.
In essence, you are saying its ok how we treated Baha Musa because our troops go through so much and that is why they assaulted him and other detainees.
Baha Musa was innocent what happened to him and his death was due to the negligence of the so called 'heroes'.
Shar2 said:
No, you're right, it shouldn't of happend, but when you have an Army that is already at full stretch, mistakes happen and certain soldiers shouldn't have been put in those positions within the gaol. Unless you've been in the sorts of situations then you really shouldn't comment. Particularly cherry picking things that have happend on one side of the conflict. I don't hear you shouting about the horrors the other side have carried out and are still carrying out, without any recourse to justice. You may think that a year in prison is a light sentence, then you have never been to a military prison. The perportrators will also, most likely, be given a dishonourable discharge from the Army too, which will muck up the rest of their lives.
Your right, the soldiers military career will be ruined. I am not anti-british troops. I dont agree with the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan but that is a seperate issue. I am anti-British troops who torture.There has not (according to my knowlegde) been a reported case of an iraqi or afghan absusing and sexually humiliating a British soldier (like what was done in Bagram, Abu Ghrain, Guantanamo to detainees).
If I heard a British soldier had been tortured by an opposing force then I would be equally outraged and would feel sad. Indeed, during the two world wars british soldiers went through alot, and sacrificed alot. And as ASHVX220 stated that thier are reports of british soldiers being tortured in the Gulf war I. I am not trying to be one sided, but yes I am angry that british soldiers (the leaders of democracy) dealt with innocent people in a inhumane way, not because of stress (as ASHVX220 pointed out) but because he liked the chorus noise made from the screams.
Marvin Hagler said:
I never said locals will look after them, you said that. Read what I said.
Anyhow, your right I am an 'armchair' guy, not a soldier. I have no idea what the soldiers go through, I feel sad that they lose their colleagues, i feel sad they are away from their families who they might no see again. HOWEVER, I feel sickened that they could commit torture on innocent people like Baha Musa (a point which you ignored in my previous post, to go on about something completely different). I have no sympathy for an army which allows this, and a justice sysem which passes a joke sentence on perpetrator.
In essence, you are saying its ok how we treated Baha Musa because our troops go through so much and that is why they assaulted him and other detainees.
Baha Musa was innocent what happened to him and his death was due to the negligence of the so called 'heroes'.
You need to read posts properly.Anyhow, your right I am an 'armchair' guy, not a soldier. I have no idea what the soldiers go through, I feel sad that they lose their colleagues, i feel sad they are away from their families who they might no see again. HOWEVER, I feel sickened that they could commit torture on innocent people like Baha Musa (a point which you ignored in my previous post, to go on about something completely different). I have no sympathy for an army which allows this, and a justice sysem which passes a joke sentence on perpetrator.
In essence, you are saying its ok how we treated Baha Musa because our troops go through so much and that is why they assaulted him and other detainees.
Baha Musa was innocent what happened to him and his death was due to the negligence of the so called 'heroes'.
I never said the locals do look after them, when you alluded to the fact that maybe the soldiers shouldn't look after PoW's I was asking who you think should look after them, asking if you'd prefer locals did it.
I'm also not for once condoning what has happened, yes, it's a tragedy, yes he (apparently) is innocent.
You're sickened that they committed torture? If they did, have you read the full report? Do any of us on here actually know what happened? The only people that know what happened are the PoW and the soldiers charged with looking after him. Do you really believe that the other side don't torture our people?
The other side torture our guys, their guys, both adult and child regardless of gender, just for disagreeing with their beliefs. They would do harm to us at any opportunity using the most cowardly methods imaginable and when they torture, I gaurentee they do the really nasty stuff, compared to "stress positions", or sleep deprivation or the usual stuff you'd possibly asssociate with our soldiers.
And don't for one second think I'm tarring all muslims with the same brush, I have numerous muslim friends who share my view. My vitriol is targetted only at the more fanatical Wahhabi types. We have to do everything within the constraints of the Geneva convention, lest the bleeding-heart liberals complain, and in the main we do and that's a good thing. But sometimes we get it wrong and this happens. It's a minority occurance, but compared to what the other side do and plan to do, it's nothing. They don't play by any rules.
I'm afraid I'll be saving my tears for our lads.
Marvin Hagler said:
Shar2 said:
No, you're right, it shouldn't of happend, but when you have an Army that is already at full stretch, mistakes happen and certain soldiers shouldn't have been put in those positions within the gaol. Unless you've been in the sorts of situations then you really shouldn't comment. Particularly cherry picking things that have happend on one side of the conflict. I don't hear you shouting about the horrors the other side have carried out and are still carrying out, without any recourse to justice. You may think that a year in prison is a light sentence, then you have never been to a military prison. The perportrators will also, most likely, be given a dishonourable discharge from the Army too, which will muck up the rest of their lives.
Your right, the soldiers military career will be ruined. I am not anti-british troops. I dont agree with the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan but that is a seperate issue. I am anti-British troops who torture.There has not (according to my knowlegde) been a reported case of an iraqi or afghan absusing and sexually humiliating a British soldier (like what was done in Bagram, Abu Ghrain, Guantanamo to detainees).
If I heard a British soldier had been tortured by an opposing force then I would be equally outraged and would feel sad. Indeed, during the two world wars british soldiers went through alot, and sacrificed alot. And as ASHVX220 stated that thier are reports of british soldiers being tortured in the Gulf war I. I am not trying to be one sided, but yes I am angry that british soldiers (the leaders of democracy) dealt with innocent people in a inhumane way, not because of stress (as ASHVX220 pointed out) but because he liked the chorus noise made from the screams.
Actually it's happened to civilians already, just look at the defence contractors being be-headed on video a few years ago, and those guys weren't even soldiers.
Edited by AshVX220 on Thursday 8th September 15:14
NO it wasn't right. YES, mistakes were made. But, I can see the reasons why those mistakes were made, whereas, all you seem to see is the actual act, (which, I agree was horrendous and shouldn't have happened). All I was trying to explain is what the soldiers have had to go through that may have caused this lapse in their moral conduct. I could take the argument further, that in war these things happen, always have always will. Only nowadays, the perpetrators are getting caught.
It's not just his military career that's mucked up, a dishonourable discharge can mean that his whole life is, as he may not be able to get proper work.
Of course you won't hear of the otherside torturing our soldiers, they do it in private, without the media circus being around. But I can asure you it has and still does happen, usually ending with the victims head being cut off. In fact several hostages were even filmed after torture having their heads removed, which was not only torture for the victim, but their families as well. I suggest you do some real research on the subject before condeming our troops as torturers and murderers.
BTW Just be thankful you're in a free country to be able to express your views, it didn't get like this by magic, we've had to fight for it and we don't like thought of giving it away to extremists of any flavour.
It's not just his military career that's mucked up, a dishonourable discharge can mean that his whole life is, as he may not be able to get proper work.
Of course you won't hear of the otherside torturing our soldiers, they do it in private, without the media circus being around. But I can asure you it has and still does happen, usually ending with the victims head being cut off. In fact several hostages were even filmed after torture having their heads removed, which was not only torture for the victim, but their families as well. I suggest you do some real research on the subject before condeming our troops as torturers and murderers.
BTW Just be thankful you're in a free country to be able to express your views, it didn't get like this by magic, we've had to fight for it and we don't like thought of giving it away to extremists of any flavour.
AshVX220 said:
You need to read posts properly.
I never said the locals do look after them, when you alluded to the fact that maybe the soldiers shouldn't look after PoW's I was asking who you think should look after them, asking if you'd prefer locals did it.
I'm also not for once condoning what has happened, yes, it's a tragedy, yes he (apparently) is innocent.
You're sickened that they committed torture? If they did, have you read the full report? Do any of us on here actually know what happened? The only people that know what happened are the PoW and the soldiers charged with looking after him. Do you really believe that the other side don't torture our people?
The other side torture our guys, their guys, both adult and child regardless of gender, just for disagreeing with their beliefs. They would do harm to us at any opportunity using the most cowardly methods imaginable and when they torture, I gaurentee they do the really nasty stuff, compared to "stress positions", or sleep deprivation or the usual stuff you'd possibly asssociate with our soldiers.
And don't for one second think I'm tarring all muslims with the same brush, I have numerous muslim friends who share my view. My vitriol is targetted only at the more fanatical Wahhabi types. We have to do everything within the constraints of the Geneva convention, lest the bleeding-heart liberals complain, and in the main we do and that's a good thing. But sometimes we get it wrong and this happens. It's a minority occurance, but compared to what the other side do and plan to do, it's nothing. They don't play by any rules.
I'm afraid I'll be saving my tears for our lads.
I agree the other side are hardly angels. But is it possible to give me a link (assuming your talking about a report and not 'on the field' experiences) providing details on what the other side have done to British soldiers? I genuinely want to read that, as I may be missing something and being unneccesarily harsh to british soldiers.I never said the locals do look after them, when you alluded to the fact that maybe the soldiers shouldn't look after PoW's I was asking who you think should look after them, asking if you'd prefer locals did it.
I'm also not for once condoning what has happened, yes, it's a tragedy, yes he (apparently) is innocent.
You're sickened that they committed torture? If they did, have you read the full report? Do any of us on here actually know what happened? The only people that know what happened are the PoW and the soldiers charged with looking after him. Do you really believe that the other side don't torture our people?
The other side torture our guys, their guys, both adult and child regardless of gender, just for disagreeing with their beliefs. They would do harm to us at any opportunity using the most cowardly methods imaginable and when they torture, I gaurentee they do the really nasty stuff, compared to "stress positions", or sleep deprivation or the usual stuff you'd possibly asssociate with our soldiers.
And don't for one second think I'm tarring all muslims with the same brush, I have numerous muslim friends who share my view. My vitriol is targetted only at the more fanatical Wahhabi types. We have to do everything within the constraints of the Geneva convention, lest the bleeding-heart liberals complain, and in the main we do and that's a good thing. But sometimes we get it wrong and this happens. It's a minority occurance, but compared to what the other side do and plan to do, it's nothing. They don't play by any rules.
I'm afraid I'll be saving my tears for our lads.
It is also important to state that the ethos of what I am saying is innocent people being tortured is wrong (whether that be me sitting in an armchair, or seeing my colleagues get blow up by the enemy).
Marvin Hagler said:
Shar2 said:
You seem to use the term US and British soldiers in a manner that makes me think you are not from either country. All our armed forces are very well trained, but there will always be some bad apples. I imagine after seeing your mates blown up, severely wounded etc, your feelings for the "other side" may impair your moral conduct somewhat. I'm not appoligising for them, but imagine the stress etc they have been under, not for just a few days, but month after month. Plus the "other side" aren't exactly brave freedom fighters, they are ruthless killers of anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking, and not just soldiers, but innocent civilians. So get off your high horse, as unless you have ever been in the situations our soldiers have been put, for purely political reasons, then you are talking out of your bottom.
No amount of stress turns a human being into an animal who tortures bound prisoners. If they are that stressed then they should not be looking after captured fighters or civillians and extreme torture and brutality is not taught in the military and you know it.Its you who is talking out of your bottom, as Baha Musa was innocent. Your brain however has classed him in the same group as a 'ruthless killer' which he was not. oh what a silly brain you have!
Shar2 said:
BTW Just be thankful you're in a free country to be able to express your views, it didn't get like this by magic, we've had to fight for it and we don't like thought of giving it away to extremists of any flavour.
I have respect for all the soldiers who fought and dies in both World wars, and this is not only a free country, but a GREAT country. I dont agree with the current wars and do not have respect for what the soldiers are doing. Ask any Iraqi or afghan who has fled to the UK, and they will tell you that things are worse than now than before the US and UK got involved.But forget extremists and the enemy, Britains own youth are pissing on War memorials and have no respect for thier country.
http://www.policeoracle.com/news/Woman-Who-Urinate...
Marvin Hagler said:
I agree the other side are hardly angels. But is it possible to give me a link (assuming your talking about a report and not 'on the field' experiences) providing details on what the other side have done to British soldiers? I genuinely want to read that, as I may be missing something and being unneccesarily harsh to british soldiers.
It is also important to state that the ethos of what I am saying is innocent people being tortured is wrong (whether that be me sitting in an armchair, or seeing my colleagues get blow up by the enemy).
As has been said, by myself and Shar2, any torture of British or coalition troops will go un-reported as they don't have a media circus monitoring everything they do.It is also important to state that the ethos of what I am saying is innocent people being tortured is wrong (whether that be me sitting in an armchair, or seeing my colleagues get blow up by the enemy).
So let's start with innocent civilians and what the enemy has done to them.
Starting with the thing that kicked this whole sorry episode of civilastion off;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11
Then this televised for the world to see;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson...
Be under no illusion, what's happeneing to thousands of innocent people and soldiers (British or otherwise) is far worse than this one incident at the hands of a British soldier.
The people we're fighting against are nasty b
ds who would torture and kill you or I in a heartbeat given half a chance and for no other reason than the fact we disagree with their religious (if you can call it that) beliefs.Jimbeaux said:
Let's hear you go on a bit about the Muslim extemists and how they treat people along with the relatively very, very few UK/US soldiers who break the law.
I have explained to you many times earlier this year Jim that 'extremist muslims' are NOT muslims. They call themselves muslims but are not, and do not represent Islam. Also, this isn't about non-muslims vs. muslims: but inevitable these threads always get turned into such debates.
Marvin Hagler said:
Jimbeaux said:
Let's hear you go on a bit about the Muslim extemists and how they treat people along with the relatively very, very few UK/US soldiers who break the law.
I have explained to you many times earlier this year Jim that 'extremist muslims' are NOT muslims. They call themselves muslims but are not, and do not represent Islam. Also, this isn't about non-muslims vs. muslims: but inevitable these threads always get turned into such debates.
Marvin Hagler said:
I agree the other side are hardly angels. But is it possible to give me a link (assuming your talking about a report and not 'on the field' experiences) providing details on what the other side have done to British soldiers? I genuinely want to read that, as I may be missing something and being unneccesarily harsh to british soldiers.
It is also important to state that the ethos of what I am saying is innocent people being tortured is wrong (whether that be me sitting in an armchair, or seeing my colleagues get blow up by the enemy).
Unfortunately I can only say I have seen the reports , which, for whatever reason they have not been published. But, if you want to see what the "other side" have done to innocent civillians then read on.It is also important to state that the ethos of what I am saying is innocent people being tortured is wrong (whether that be me sitting in an armchair, or seeing my colleagues get blow up by the enemy).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_hostages_in_I...
There are plenty more should you care to look.
AshVX220 said:
This isn't yet turning into a Muslim v Anti-Muslim thread. Not that I can see anyway.
As for the youth's pissing on war graves and monuments in this country, that makes me sick to the pit of my stomach and if I witnessed it, I would probably be arrested soon afterwards.
Only if they were found. As for the youth's pissing on war graves and monuments in this country, that makes me sick to the pit of my stomach and if I witnessed it, I would probably be arrested soon afterwards.
Shar2 said:
BTW Just be thankful you're in a free country to be able to express your views, it didn't get like this by magic, we've had to fight for it and we don't like thought of giving it away to extremists of any flavour.
And we're now doing our best to reverse all that good work.By engaging in such wars in the first place we are making it MORE likely that our country is given 'away to extremists' as mentioned by the ex-MI5 chief and even call me Dave. Let's not pretend the Iraq adventure was ever about British security when it clearly wasn't,
AshVX220 said:
Marvin Hagler said:
I agree the other side are hardly angels. But is it possible to give me a link (assuming your talking about a report and not 'on the field' experiences) providing details on what the other side have done to British soldiers? I genuinely want to read that, as I may be missing something and being unneccesarily harsh to british soldiers.
It is also important to state that the ethos of what I am saying is innocent people being tortured is wrong (whether that be me sitting in an armchair, or seeing my colleagues get blow up by the enemy).
As has been said, by myself and Shar2, any torture of British or coalition troops will go un-reported as they don't have a media circus monitoring everything they do.It is also important to state that the ethos of what I am saying is innocent people being tortured is wrong (whether that be me sitting in an armchair, or seeing my colleagues get blow up by the enemy).
So let's start with innocent civilians and what the enemy has done to them.
Starting with the thing that kicked this whole sorry episode of civilastion off;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11
Then this televised for the world to see;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson...
Be under no illusion, what's happeneing to thousands of innocent people and soldiers (British or otherwise) is far worse than this one incident at the hands of a British soldier.
The people we're fighting against are nasty b
ds who would torture and kill you or I in a heartbeat given half a chance and for no other reason than the fact we disagree with their religious (if you can call it that) beliefs.Victor McDade said:
And we're now doing our best to reverse all that good work.
By engaging in such wars in the first place we are making it MORE likely that our country is given 'away to extremists' as mentioned by the ex-MI5 chief and even call me Dave. Let's not pretend the Iraq adventure was ever about British security when it clearly wasn't,
I don't think any of us are pretending that, or indeed agreeing with it. IMHO though, once the decision was made to go there, we should all be supporting our troops who are there.By engaging in such wars in the first place we are making it MORE likely that our country is given 'away to extremists' as mentioned by the ex-MI5 chief and even call me Dave. Let's not pretend the Iraq adventure was ever about British security when it clearly wasn't,
Jimbeaux said:
AshVX220 said:
This isn't yet turning into a Muslim v Anti-Muslim thread. Not that I can see anyway.
As for the youth's pissing on war graves and monuments in this country, that makes me sick to the pit of my stomach and if I witnessed it, I would probably be arrested soon afterwards.
Only if they were found. As for the youth's pissing on war graves and monuments in this country, that makes me sick to the pit of my stomach and if I witnessed it, I would probably be arrested soon afterwards.
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