Was Kipling racist?
Discussion
citizensm1th said:
philv said:
And to think tney are allowed to vote.
So are 80 year olds with dementia Mind you, many students seem not to even realise the importance of a vote.
As for the story:
Sara Khan, the Student Union's 'Liberation and Access Officer'
t off PH. I didn't vote Brexit to see black Bakewells. 
Kinda reminds me of those idiots with Che Guevara t-shirts.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/was-che-guevara-a-he...
https://www.theepochtimes.com/was-che-guevara-a-he...
dandarez said:
citizensm1th said:
philv said:
And to think tney are allowed to vote.
So are 80 year olds with dementia Mind you, many students seem not to even realise the importance of a vote.
As for the story:
Sara Khan, the Student Union's 'Liberation and Access Officer'
citizensm1th said:
dandarez said:
citizensm1th said:
philv said:
And to think tney are allowed to vote.
So are 80 year olds with dementia Mind you, many students seem not to even realise the importance of a vote.
As for the story:
Sara Khan, the Student Union's 'Liberation and Access Officer'
Hoofy said:
Kinda reminds me of those idiots with Che Guevara t-shirts.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/was-che-guevara-a-he...
dude that link suddenly popped up all manner of crap https://www.theepochtimes.com/was-che-guevara-a-he...
The 1800s....when little scrotes were put to work, beggars were sent to the workhouses, your wife would fulfill her womanly duties....or else, homosexuals were sinners to be executed and black people were savages who needed controlling.
Like another poster said, you can't judge someone from the past with modern sensibilities. We have come a long way since then.
Like another poster said, you can't judge someone from the past with modern sensibilities. We have come a long way since then.
irocfan said:
Hoofy said:
Kinda reminds me of those idiots with Che Guevara t-shirts.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/was-che-guevara-a-he...
dude that link suddenly popped up all manner of crap https://www.theepochtimes.com/was-che-guevara-a-he...
Just google "che murders"
Edited by Hoofy on Thursday 19th July 19:04
Biggles was racist.
I think it is right to challenge the point of view of Kipling with regards to certain aspects of his beliefs. I think it is helpful to know that even heroes have feet of clay. However, I've looked through If and can find no racism. Perhaps I'm wrong.
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build ‘em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on”;
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings—nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run—
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
It's aspirational. Who couldn't fail to be inspired by it, to use it as a target? I found: 'If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same' very helpful in my career. I once apologised to a detective sergeant for almost (but not quite) ruining a case and he asked me if I did my best. I said: 'Yes, but it wasn't good enough.' He said: 'Then get better.' That's the quote from Kipling but in unmemorable form.
The poem doesn't compare to 'when moonbeams kiss the sea' but its got as much bite.
I think it is right to challenge the point of view of Kipling with regards to certain aspects of his beliefs. I think it is helpful to know that even heroes have feet of clay. However, I've looked through If and can find no racism. Perhaps I'm wrong.
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build ‘em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on”;
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings—nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run—
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!
It's aspirational. Who couldn't fail to be inspired by it, to use it as a target? I found: 'If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same' very helpful in my career. I once apologised to a detective sergeant for almost (but not quite) ruining a case and he asked me if I did my best. I said: 'Yes, but it wasn't good enough.' He said: 'Then get better.' That's the quote from Kipling but in unmemorable form.
The poem doesn't compare to 'when moonbeams kiss the sea' but its got as much bite.
Derek Smith said:
It's aspirational. Who couldn't fail to be inspired by it, to use it as a target?
It's not exactly encouraging to half of the human population, tbf.But whether one particular poem may or may not have certain overtones is a different question to whether the poet himself held those views.
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