CV19 - Cure worse than the disease? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Tyre Smoke said:
It's like the Cabinet asked Witty etc al 'How do we control the spread of this virus?' And got in reply 'oh, that's easy. Lockdown'. 'But we've panned the economy!' 'You only asked about controlling the spread of the virus, you never mentioned the economic impact...'
"How can we cure this ingrowing toenail?". "Oh, that's easy. Cut off the foot". "But the patient won't then be able to walk !". "You didn't mention anything about walking...."
gareth_r said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Are any politicians talking sense from either of the main parties? Or are they all hamstrung by SAGE and the 'experts'.
As far as I can remember, the opposition has questioned nothing. They have rubber-stamped, or, rather, cheered on, everything that the Tories have done.However, I think this a manufactured emergency rather than a real one
ant1973 said:
Funny watching Oliver Dowden being unable to explain why it's ok to sit on a plane for eight hours cheek to joul, but football matches are different. These people are mad, quite mad.
Having been puzzled by the bizarre job support scheme, I can only assume that the coming unemployment is planned. It must be about creative destruction. This will be like the deindustrialization of the early 1980s on steroids. It's ironic that it is largely driven by left wing academics and scientists who have proposed and driven the lockdown strategy. But with no training on offer, they are taking a hell of a gamble that the market can sort this.
Governments own forecast is for unemployment to rise to 10-13% next year. Having been puzzled by the bizarre job support scheme, I can only assume that the coming unemployment is planned. It must be about creative destruction. This will be like the deindustrialization of the early 1980s on steroids. It's ironic that it is largely driven by left wing academics and scientists who have proposed and driven the lockdown strategy. But with no training on offer, they are taking a hell of a gamble that the market can sort this.
Unlike the 80’s, we don’t have a load of nationalised businesses we can sell off to fund the costs... of course we do have the NHS we could sell. I’m sure the Chinese would pay a decent amount for it.
ant1973 said:
It's ironic that it is largely driven by left wing academics and scientists who have proposed and driven the lockdown strategy..
Most academics and probably scientists (being academics) are left wing though. The govt chooses which science it wants to believe - there is sufficient numbers of scientists proposing other solutions that they could use if they wanted. Sweden is hardly the bastion of right wing politics after all and has been the darling of the socialists for decades and yet they have been pretty much the only ones to behave rationally this whole mess. I don't think looking at this through a political lens is actually helpful personally. P.S rather depressingly Mark Woolhouse on Andrew Marr seems to have confirmed that the govt preferred view is 6 more months of suppression and presumably they think our magic bullet vaccine will save us them and also that the govt also simply chose or did not want to consider anything other than disease control epidemiology before the first lockdown. One can but hope that when a member of spi-m states publicly all lockdown does is defer the problem perhaps some of the utter fools in govt are finally taking notice....
Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 27th September 11:00
isaldiri said:
Most academics and probably scientists (being academics) are left wing though. The govt chooses which science it wants to believe - there is sufficient numbers of scientists proposing other solutions that they could use if they wanted. Sweden is hardly the bastion of right wing politics after all and has been the darling of the socialists for decades and yet they have been pretty much the only ones to behave rationally this whole mess. I don't think looking at this through a political lens is actually helpful personally.
Well there is left wing and then there is far left. Those of a social democratic bent are unlikely to be wanting to destroy the economy so they can introduce Marxist policies via the back door.As I have said before there is no "grand conspiracy", what there are is intersecting interests and those who use others as useful idiots. The Scientific advisors assume an outsized importance if the media will amplify their message and so cause damage to the government.
If Whitty resigned for example and led a media campaign against the government "failing to lockdown properly will kill grandma" it would likely cause significant damage to the government.
OddCat said:
Tyre Smoke said:
It's like the Cabinet asked Witty etc al 'How do we control the spread of this virus?' And got in reply 'oh, that's easy. Lockdown'. 'But we've panned the economy!' 'You only asked about controlling the spread of the virus, you never mentioned the economic impact...'
"How can we cure this ingrowing toenail?". "Oh, that's easy. Cut off the foot". "But the patient won't then be able to walk !". "You didn't mention anything about walking...."
You're a specialist in something, or more to the point, you job is to look after X. When it all starts getting complicated or even worse, starts to go wrong, you instinctively hunker down and box yourself into your role/comfort zone. As long as I do my job properly, no one can blame me when it goes wrong. Leave the other complicated problems Y and Z to somebody else to sort out. Not my job guv.
One of the results of this is the big picture gets missed. This is even more obvious when it's being controlled by a tight group of people/Ministers/Advisors who are micromanaging things they have absolutely no clue about. See no understanding or even awareness of false positives, world beating app/track & trace, shutting businesses at 10pm, indirect death count oh, and the economy.
We can see it as we're stood back watching the s
t show unfold. The majority of journalists can't see it as they all studied english at uni and maths/science is a scary dark place they must never question. They are good at emotional black mail and headlines though.Edited by ben5575 on Sunday 27th September 11:19
klan8456 said:
ant1973 said:
Funny watching Oliver Dowden being unable to explain why it's ok to sit on a plane for eight hours cheek to joul, but football matches are different. These people are mad, quite mad.
Having been puzzled by the bizarre job support scheme, I can only assume that the coming unemployment is planned. It must be about creative destruction. This will be like the deindustrialization of the early 1980s on steroids. It's ironic that it is largely driven by left wing academics and scientists who have proposed and driven the lockdown strategy. But with no training on offer, they are taking a hell of a gamble that the market can sort this.
Airplanes don’t typically have people shouting / screaming at the top of their lungs and projecting aerosols meters into the air. Having been puzzled by the bizarre job support scheme, I can only assume that the coming unemployment is planned. It must be about creative destruction. This will be like the deindustrialization of the early 1980s on steroids. It's ironic that it is largely driven by left wing academics and scientists who have proposed and driven the lockdown strategy. But with no training on offer, they are taking a hell of a gamble that the market can sort this.
That said, in the current circumstances, there’s no way you’d find me getting on a plane and turning right
ben5575 said:
This is the perfect example of public sector mentality though. I'm sure it's prevalent in large businesses as well.
You're a specialist in something, or more to the point, you job is to look after X. When it all starts getting complicated or even worse, starts to go wrong, you instinctively hunker down and box yourself into your role/comfort zone. As long as I do my job properly, no one can blame me when it goes wrong. Leave the other complicated problems Y and Z to somebody else to sort out. Not my job guv.
One of the results of this is the big picture gets missed. This is even more obvious when it's being controlled by a tight group of people/Ministers/Advisors who are micromanaging things they have absolutely no clue about. See no understanding or even awareness of false positives, world beating app/track & trace, shutting businesses at 10pm, indirect death count oh, and the economy.
We can see it as we're stood back watching the st show unfold. The majority of journalists can't see it as they all studied english at uni and maths/science is a scary dark place they must never question. They are good at emotional black mail and headlines though.
You're a specialist in something, or more to the point, you job is to look after X. When it all starts getting complicated or even worse, starts to go wrong, you instinctively hunker down and box yourself into your role/comfort zone. As long as I do my job properly, no one can blame me when it goes wrong. Leave the other complicated problems Y and Z to somebody else to sort out. Not my job guv.
One of the results of this is the big picture gets missed. This is even more obvious when it's being controlled by a tight group of people/Ministers/Advisors who are micromanaging things they have absolutely no clue about. See no understanding or even awareness of false positives, world beating app/track & trace, shutting businesses at 10pm, indirect death count oh, and the economy.
We can see it as we're stood back watching the s
t show unfold. The majority of journalists can't see it as they all studied english at uni and maths/science is a scary dark place they must never question. They are good at emotional black mail and headlines though.
Most of the media being the useful idiots in this scenario. They just want to make money and make trouble for politicians they disapprove (Boris, Trump etc). Those with hidden agendas can then use them to amplify their message and blackmail governments.
ant1973 said:
Funny watching Oliver Dowden being unable to explain why it's ok to sit on a plane for eight hours cheek to joul, but football matches are different. These people are mad, quite mad.
Having been puzzled by the bizarre job support scheme, I can only assume that the coming unemployment is planned. It must be about creative destruction. This will be like the deindustrialization of the early 1980s on steroids. It's ironic that it is largely driven by left wing academics and scientists who have proposed and driven the lockdown strategy. But with no training on offer, they are taking a hell of a gamble that the market can sort this.
Their brave new world is one based on the green economy and internet shopping,no need for any of you to leave your homes ever again.Having been puzzled by the bizarre job support scheme, I can only assume that the coming unemployment is planned. It must be about creative destruction. This will be like the deindustrialization of the early 1980s on steroids. It's ironic that it is largely driven by left wing academics and scientists who have proposed and driven the lockdown strategy. But with no training on offer, they are taking a hell of a gamble that the market can sort this.
smashing said:
just had a news alert on my phone regarding a SAGE scientist warning on the third wave already 
fking hell shoot me now
Tweak your response a little and you might be onto something that works. fking hell shoot me now Lots of 'scientists' around busy pumping their careers by getting in the papers shouting the most radical nonsense they can.
Well I guess if it works for climate science I guess it works for anything else where you can use theoretical models to scare people about future events to get money to do research...
gareth_r said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Are any politicians talking sense from either of the main parties? Or are they all hamstrung by SAGE and the 'experts'.
As far as I can remember, the opposition has questioned nothing. They have rubber-stamped, or, rather, cheered on, everything that the Tories have done.https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1340473/Coronavi...
isaldiri said:
ant1973 said:
It's ironic that it is largely driven by left wing academics and scientists who have proposed and driven the lockdown strategy..
Most academics and probably scientists (being academics) are left wing though. The govt chooses which science it wants to believe - there is sufficient numbers of scientists proposing other solutions that they could use if they wanted. Sweden is hardly the bastion of right wing politics after all and has been the darling of the socialists for decades and yet they have been pretty much the only ones to behave rationally this whole mess. I don't think looking at this through a political lens is actually helpful personally. P.S rather depressingly Mark Woolhouse on Andrew Marr seems to have confirmed that the govt preferred view is 6 more months of suppression and presumably they think our magic bullet vaccine will save us them and also that the govt also simply chose or did not want to consider anything other than disease control epidemiology before the first lockdown. One can but hope that when a member of spi-m states publicly all lockdown does is defer the problem perhaps some of the utter fools in govt are finally taking notice....
Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 27th September 11:00
Only large dollops of political and economic pain will force a change of policy here. I suspect that will start on the 1st of November. It's the fact that no one seems to see it coming that is so shocking. The popular press will have a field day with this..... It will be the economic equivalent of filming a hospital ward Bergamo in April. Will be interesting to see the whole we are in it together spirit at that juncture. I think we are about to live in "interesting times".
ant1973 said:
Only large dollops of political and economic pain will force a change of policy here. I suspect that will start on the 1st of November. It's the fact that no one seems to see it coming that is so shocking. The popular press will have a field day with this..... It will be the economic equivalent of filming a hospital ward Bergamo in April. Will be interesting to see the whole we are in it together spirit at that juncture. I think we are about to live in "interesting times".
Businesses will only keep people on the government scheme now that they intend to keep. A significant part of the adjustment has already come and more will likely follow well before 1 November.
Based on their statements where I work as already made redundant those they intend too (and did so back at the end of July) and the rest of us had to purchase ten days holiday and so had reduced pay as a result.
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