Benefits Crackdown

[Silvanus]

deckster said:

highway said:

You are right. However, there is also a problem with many claiming benefits they shouldn’t be entitled to. My best twin mates brother- who I went to school with. Never worked since leaving school. A few years cash in hand. Benefits including massively subsidised housing ever since. It’s virtuous to indicate there isn’t a problem at the opposite end of oligarchs and the like. But it’s flawed thinking.

It's weird this. Everybody I know who relies on benefits is really fking struggling. I mean, really really struggling. I simply don't recognise this viewpoint of free houses & big TVs all round, outside of the Daily Mail of course.

That's not to say that things don't need reform, of course. But it needs to start from a point of view that - people genuinely need help and as tax-payers in a rich country it is our responsibility to make sure that they get it.

To my mind, the real issue is that working at minimum wage simply doesn't buy any kind of a reasonable livelihood, over and above living on benefits. It's a farcical situation where the government needs to issue blanket tax credits and other benefits to people who already have full-time jobs. Which is course is a complex problem that involves house prices, affordable accommodation, inflation of food prices, energy costs and a whole host of other economic issues.

It's not at all obvious to me that taking money away from those who already don't have any is an answer to anything. But I guess it's easy to do and wins you some headlines.

It's definitely all about headlines. Reforms are definitely needed and of course some know how to play the system. However, there are thousands of people living in absolute despair and poverty who have no option to rely on benefits for a whole host of reasons.

[Getragdogleg]

Drawweight said:

My neighbour drives a new car and has 4 holidays a year but is on benefits.

Coming in 3..2…1.

I could show you several families' like this, never done stroke of work since I was at School with them.

Lazy fakers.

This "crackdown" will take the usual form and ignore people like the above and go for the ones who work, have a disabled child and get help with the day care. Or families with a need for elderly or disabled adult care.

It will go for the low hanging fruit as usual and the daily mail will be full of people with a story to tell about how they lost help despite actually needing it.

Meanwhile the professional scroungers and new arrivals who threw their passport and ID away before coming will sit in the benefits safety net like its a luxury hammock.

[The Ferret]

8IKERDAVE said:

I've never understood while able bodied people on benefits aren't forced to work for their money.

Because they don't have to any more, the handouts are too easily available.

Then you have things like this fuelling the fire

Article said:

But the charity Mind said the use of sanctions would worsen peoples' mental health.

Obviously it doesn't apply to all, but far too many are playing the system, and the system is more than happy to offer a number of different ways for them to play.

How you solve it is the big question. I'm 99.99% convinced our Govt won't find the right answer, and instead will target the ones that really do need the support.

[8IKERDAVE]

chrispmartha said:

8IKERDAVE said:

'.

I've told both my children, if they ever find themselves on jobseekers, they will be coming to work for me FOC until they find something.

FOC?

Maybe paying them would be better, otherwise they’ll probably tell you to get stuffed.

They will already be paid through the system which I am paying into anyway.

[otolith]

8IKERDAVE said:

I've told both my children, if they ever find themselves on jobseekers, they will be coming to work for me FOC until they find something.

Not sure that's allowed?

[119]

Silvanus said:

It's definitely all about headlines. Reforms are definitely needed and of course some know how to play the system. However, there are thousands of people living in absolute despair and poverty who have no option to rely on benefits for a whole host of reasons.

Of course there will be those that will rely on them, but that isnt all of them.

A couple would need to work roughly 70 hrs a month between them to get similar levels of income from what I can work out.

[Hants PHer]

Interestingly, the lady speaking for the Trussell Trust on LBC this morning (sorry, forgot her name) broadly welcomed this initiative, albeit with a couple of reservations. "More carrot than stick", she said.

I remain, however, sceptical that it'll work. Governments often pledge to reform the benefits system: make the fit but work shy contribute while protecting those genuinely unable to work. And every government fails in that task. I see this as a bit of headline grabbing that the government thinks might play well with the electorate, while knowing it won't achieve anything - much like Rwanda, the floating barge and Stop The Boats.

[hidetheelephants]

Eric Mc said:

Where have we heard this before?

I remember Mrs Thatcher and her minions launching "Benefits Crackdowns" 40 plus years ago.

I wonder if the Tories will ever launch a "Multi-Billionaires/Overseas Oligarch Tax Evader/Tory Party Donator" crackdown?

A funding boost for HMRC to go after white collar crime might net a meaningful increase in govt revenue, whereas setting up the "shop a dole bludger" hotline will raise tuppence happenny.

[CrgT16]

This always brings some odd comments.

Is it really offensive or scared to suggest and indeed impose that you need to work for your money if you are able to?

Where in the social contract says it is an option I can make? Because no matter what someone is paying… there is no magic money tree.

You are able bodied you should work. The problem with all crackdowns is that it will affect most that actually are trying to get out of the benefit system. Lots of decent folk use the benefit system to help them and I am glad they have it but there are a lot of scroungers too. Most always feeling hard done by society…

The last big mistake is too assume we are a rich country… not anymore just look at our roads, NHS, etc. we simply can’t afford this welfare joke anymore. Help who needs but get rid of the career scroungers.

Mental health…. Yes we all suffer with regardless of income.

Like I said help the ones in need, no problem as sometimes life is a bh but it’s time to get real.

[Eric Mc]

highway said:

Eric Mc said:

Where have we heard this before?

I remember Mrs Thatcher and her minions launching "Benefits Crackdowns" 40 plus years ago.

I wonder if the Tories will ever launch a "Multi-Billionaires/Overseas Oligarch Tax Evader/Tory Party Donator" crackdown?

You are right. However, there is also a problem with many claiming benefits they shouldn’t be entitled to. My best twin mates brother- who I went to school with. Never worked since leaving school. A few years cash in hand. Benefits including massively subsidised housing ever since. It’s virtuous to indicate there isn’t a problem at the opposite end of oligarchs and the like. But it’s flawed thinking.

We have needed change and reform for decades.

As far as the Benefits SYSTEMS are concerned (there are more than one), we have had CONSTANT change and reform for decades. It doesn't do anything except make the system massively complex, difficult and full of iffy areas.

Crooks will be crooks. As ever, the crooks just ignore the rules and tell lies in their applications. The genuine applicants just find the process of applying more and more difficult.

[Silvanus]

CrgT16 said:

This always brings some odd comments.

Is it really offensive or scared to suggest and indeed impose that you need to work for your money if you are able to?

Where in the social contract says it is an option I can make? Because no matter what someone is paying… there is no magic money tree.

You are able bodied you should work. The problem with all crackdowns is that it will affect most that actually are trying to get out of the benefit system. Lots of decent folk use the benefit system to help them and I am glad they have it but there are a lot of scroungers too. Most always feeling hard done by society…

The last big mistake is too assume we are a rich country… not anymore just look at our roads, NHS, etc. we simply can’t afford this welfare joke anymore. Help who needs but get rid of the career scroungers.

Mental health…. Yes we all suffer with regardless of income.

Like I said help the ones in need, no problem as sometimes life is a bh but it’s time to get real.

You say there are a lot of scroungers, how many? What are the figures for those that choose to be career benefit scroungers?

[Terminator X]

Stop paying people to have 3 or more kids would be a good place to start. Other than that I doubt the "fraud" adds up to much and/or is dwarfed by other stuff. Yes I mean Big Business paying zero Corp Tax etc.

TX.

[98elise]

deckster said:

highway said:

You are right. However, there is also a problem with many claiming benefits they shouldn’t be entitled to. My best twin mates brother- who I went to school with. Never worked since leaving school. A few years cash in hand. Benefits including massively subsidised housing ever since. It’s virtuous to indicate there isn’t a problem at the opposite end of oligarchs and the like. But it’s flawed thinking.

It's weird this. Everybody I know who relies on benefits is really fking struggling. I mean, really really struggling. I simply don't recognise this viewpoint of free houses & big TVs all round, outside of the Daily Mail of course.

That's not to say that things don't need reform, of course. But it needs to start from a point of view that - people genuinely need help and as tax-payers in a rich country it is our responsibility to make sure that they get it.

To my mind, the real issue is that working at minimum wage simply doesn't buy any kind of a reasonable livelihood, over and above living on benefits. It's a farcical situation where the government needs to issue blanket tax credits and other benefits to people who already have full-time jobs. Which is course is a complex problem that involves house prices, affordable accommodation, inflation of food prices, energy costs and a whole host of other economic issues.

It's not at all obvious to me that taking money away from those who already don't have any is an answer to anything. But I guess it's easy to do and wins you some headlines.

I've said this many times before, but my father in law never worked a day in the entire time I knew him. He lived 2 streets away from us, and had a newer car than us. He was not struggling at all. As far as I'm aware he never even considered applying for any work.

That's not the Daily Mail, it's the reality when you choose benefits as a career.

He was of course a staunch socialist so hated me!

[98elise]

Silvanus said:

CrgT16 said:

This always brings some odd comments.

Is it really offensive or scared to suggest and indeed impose that you need to work for your money if you are able to?

Where in the social contract says it is an option I can make? Because no matter what someone is paying… there is no magic money tree.

You are able bodied you should work. The problem with all crackdowns is that it will affect most that actually are trying to get out of the benefit system. Lots of decent folk use the benefit system to help them and I am glad they have it but there are a lot of scroungers too. Most always feeling hard done by society…

The last big mistake is too assume we are a rich country… not anymore just look at our roads, NHS, etc. we simply can’t afford this welfare joke anymore. Help who needs but get rid of the career scroungers.

Mental health…. Yes we all suffer with regardless of income.

Like I said help the ones in need, no problem as sometimes life is a bh but it’s time to get real.

You say there are a lot of scroungers, how many? What are the figures for those that choose to be career benefit scroungers?

I would say anyone fit and able that cannot get a job in the current job market. Whats holding them back?

[otolith]

Terminator X said:

Stop paying people to have 3 or more kids would be a good place to start. Other than that I doubt the "fraud" adds up to much and/or is dwarfed by other stuff. Yes I mean Big Business paying zero Corp Tax etc.

TX.

Didn't we already do that?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/16/tw...

[CrgT16]

I don’t know any numbers but I do know at least 12 people that never worked a day in their life and are mid 30s. For those it was a lifestyle choice.

My problem is not helping people is that if you are taking benefits unnecessarily or in the spirit it is meant you are: 1-making less money available to the families that really need to and 2- Are potentially increasing the tax liability for families that do not claim.

Simple really. The same way out local hotel has been housing asylum seekers at a huge cost to the tax payers… more than 70% are young males, rude, are everything about the weather, uk, etc. I doubt all of them are true asylum seekers but still we pay.

Respecting myself… help families, individuals who need and help them turn around their lives but don’t make it a life choice.

Anyway that’s my view from my personal observations and experience. I understand it may not be the universal reality but it is what I have seen.

[Funk]

Fermit said:

highway said:

You are right. However, there is also a problem with many claiming benefits they shouldn’t be entitled to. My best twin mates brother- who I went to school with. Never worked since leaving school. A few years cash in hand. Benefits including massively subsidised housing ever since. It’s virtuous to indicate there isn’t a problem at the opposite end of oligarchs and the like. But it’s flawed thinking.

We have needed change and reform for decades.

A problem is, that all too often the most genuine needy individuals get swept up in search reforms. An genuine example. My little sister who has Downs. In the early 2010's my mother had to complete a 30 page questionnaire every 6 months, for her to continue receiving her (much warranted) benefits. Yeah, like she could just happen to wake up one morning without the condition

I couldn't agree more. One of my closest friends has epilepsy, diagnosed at 13 (once she finally got doctors to take her seriously - initially she was accused of faking/being a drama queen). She's been on reams of various medications since her teens (now in her 40s), qualified for and had VNS surgery and they're continually trying to bring her seizures under control.

Her epilepsy is classed as 'Focal Onset Impaired Awareness Complex Partial Seizures' which means she rarely knows they're about to happen, is not aware of her surroundings during a seizure (typically she's unaware for around 5-10 minutes), not in control of her body (so if standing she'll fall, often hitting her head on the way down) and her seziures are completely unpredictable. She worked for as long as possible (up to around 5 years ago) but due to seizures whilst commuting and when actually at work, she had to eventually reduce her days until her GP signed her off long-term. Ultimately her employer had to end her employment as it became clear she would not be able to return to work. She wanted (and wants) to work and misses the structure, interaction and being part of something.

She found herself at the mercy of the DWP and having to accept she would have little choice but to potentially live the rest of her life on benefits which she hated the thought of - effectively retired at 40 but with no funds to survive and the meagre amounts she does receive could be removed at the whim of a button-pusher somewhere.

The DWP were horrendous. She was claiming for a year or so and after a review of her case they decided she no longer qualified and removed her housing benefit, council tax benefit and reduced others like PIP, ESA and DLA (as it was prior to Universal Credit) - after lengthy delays and appeals with the DWP continuing to deny her benefits she took them to court and won. Taking them to court took a year, but not only did she win, the judge and other members of the process (which included a doctor and other healthcare workers) said that the DWP had made an 'error of law' and wrongly had her on the lower tier of benefits when in fact she was entitled to the highest. The judge ruled that her benefits be reinstated at the higher level AND back-dated payments made for the period she had not been paid along with the uplift to the higher level that she had been entitled to all along.

I went through this with her every step of the way and saw how obstructive, difficult, dismissive and awful the DWP were but even worse the toll it took on her physically and mentally. She had to fight with no money, managing a chronic, potentially life-threatening condition. It should not be like that for people who have a proven, long-term medical condition. Her epilepsy won't just magically 'get better', the best she can hope for is that it's brought under control eventually somehow - and she and her epileptologist and their team are doing that on a continuous basis (incrementally increasing the VNS stimulation, she's just been moved over to a newer anti-epilepsy drug in the last few weeks etc). The most stupid thing is that one of the biggest triggers of seizures is stress and the actions taken by the DWP actively made her condition worse. The whole thing is fked up.

She manages to get by on her benefits but it's a modest life with a lot of budgeting and not a lot of margin for unexpected costs. She's particularly felt the pinch with increasing energy costs and has had to argue down outrageous rent increases on the small 1-bedroom flat she rents. She has managed to save most of the back-dated award money from the DWP, however she now has to continually explain to them why she has that level of 'savings' at each review! It's utterly bonkers. She also feels like she lives with the permanent threat that the benefits can be removed (again) with a wrong decision and few keystrokes.

That small pot is now her safety net in case she is ever forced to move or the DWP fk her over again - with fewer rental properties available and at higher prices, the fight to get somewhere is tough anyway but for someone on benefits it's worse due to the stigma. She only managed to get the place she's in now because she was able to offer 6 months upfront and then replenish savings from the monthly housing benefit payment. Most on benefits won't be able do that.

It's highly likely that people like her will get caught up in these sorts of measures and it will only add to the stress of managing a life-long, chronic and - at present - uncontrolled medical condition.

Edited by Funk on Friday 17th November 12:10

[markbigears]

I always know if the governments latest crackdown is working as two of my cousins have never worked a day in their lives.
One is just fat, the other has “eye issues” but I witnessed, can type his PIN number in to get his (our) cash out.
Last weekend had lunch with my parents and asked if they are back in employment …. Nope, but one has just got a nice brand new car and they help their mother out with their surplus money. So no, at the moment it’s still not working.

[98elise]

8IKERDAVE said:

I've never understood while able bodied people on benefits aren't forced to work for their money. There are absolutely tons of public service jobs they could be doing! This would spur the lazy to find a job they actually enjoy and for those that continue to not look at least the taxpayer is seeing something back for their 'investment'.

I agree with this. If you're job seeking and getting benefits then that should come with work. Effectively if you cannot find a job yourself, the government will provide one.

It's not a punishment or sanction, it's just how life works.

[Tom8]

said:

Sad story and that is exactly the problem People like her are lumped together with the ne'er do wells and treated the same. No one (I think) disagrees with having a welfare system, it is just that the ones who need it are diluted by those who don't or indeed won't.