Discussion
Stuart70 said:
My father in law did a degree apprenticeship in accountancy in the 50’s.
There are plenty of degree apprenticeships around today for those who want to work and learn.
Plus ca change!
I am a huge supporter of university as a means of teaching kids how to think: how to look at primary sources, critically evaluate and understand a subject. In a world of AI and information being ever less trust worthy, this is a skill which is going to be increasingly essential as a means to navigate a professional world.
The debt and the fees are a means of grinding down social mobility and for that we should all be ashamed.
The single biggest issue with education but especially with university is the capture of it by employers.There are plenty of degree apprenticeships around today for those who want to work and learn.
Plus ca change!
I am a huge supporter of university as a means of teaching kids how to think: how to look at primary sources, critically evaluate and understand a subject. In a world of AI and information being ever less trust worthy, this is a skill which is going to be increasingly essential as a means to navigate a professional world.
The debt and the fees are a means of grinding down social mobility and for that we should all be ashamed.
Few would raise an eyebrow when people say things like “we need schools and universities to equip our children with the skills they need in the workforce today” or “is our education system really training young people for their careers?”.
But that attitude is f
ked. Employers have persuaded populace and government that the function of education is to train people to work for them. They have offloaded the costs of TRAINING onto the public purse.But the purpose of education is to provide an education, it’s not to train people to work in businesses or to produce costs of employers.
The government and public should pay for education, employers can pay for training.
A university education will enrich and improve your life even if you just work on a checkout.
It’s reductive and foolish and, well, actually just plain intellectually weak to measure the value of an education by the salary that the student gets afterwards.
Edited by PlywoodPascal on Sunday 19th November 08:35
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Isn't this just a bit too much Mail Express and Telegraph at work again?
I'm all for more vocational education but my god there's a certain generation that like pulling the drawbridge up isn't there.
And (at least) 51 years is a long time for (most of) them to be at work. I'm certainly not going to do that.I'm all for more vocational education but my god there's a certain generation that like pulling the drawbridge up isn't there.
One of the biggest mistakes of the Blair era was the huge push to get everyone into university
My opinion is that we lost sight of what we need and how we need to equip and train our young to be a fit for the workforce
Vocational training was thrown in the dustbin of progress ( nursing is probably the biggest example)
Technical colleges that provided skilled workers for local industries and trades, and could react quickly to a changing economy and workforce mix became third tier universities mimicking the courses already provided elsewhere. Mechanical engineering/IT/trades courses became media and performing arts courses
Apprenticeships have a huge value and combined with day release courses benefit everyone
Keeping everyone in full time education till 18 is counterproductive in my view as not everyone is suited to school and leaving earlier into the workplace would be more beneficial for many
My experience of graduates entering the workplace is of generally ill prepared young people, wet behind the ears and no concept of starting at the bottom and grafting their way up .. there’s a real sense of self importance and entitlement with an expectation of progress quickly without effort
In summary we really need to refocus and develop third level education/training that provides a workforce for the skills needed today and tomorrow
The university system seems now to have just turned into a business based on making money for the providers rather than a service providing the future workforce we need
My opinion is that we lost sight of what we need and how we need to equip and train our young to be a fit for the workforce
Vocational training was thrown in the dustbin of progress ( nursing is probably the biggest example)
Technical colleges that provided skilled workers for local industries and trades, and could react quickly to a changing economy and workforce mix became third tier universities mimicking the courses already provided elsewhere. Mechanical engineering/IT/trades courses became media and performing arts courses
Apprenticeships have a huge value and combined with day release courses benefit everyone
Keeping everyone in full time education till 18 is counterproductive in my view as not everyone is suited to school and leaving earlier into the workplace would be more beneficial for many
My experience of graduates entering the workplace is of generally ill prepared young people, wet behind the ears and no concept of starting at the bottom and grafting their way up .. there’s a real sense of self importance and entitlement with an expectation of progress quickly without effort
In summary we really need to refocus and develop third level education/training that provides a workforce for the skills needed today and tomorrow
The university system seems now to have just turned into a business based on making money for the providers rather than a service providing the future workforce we need
Earthdweller said:
One of the biggest mistakes of the Blair era was the huge push to get everyone into university
My opinion is that we lost sight of what we need and how we need to equip and train our young to be a fit for the workforce
Vocational training was thrown in the dustbin of progress ( nursing is probably the biggest example)
Technical colleges that provided skilled workers for local industries and trades, and could react quickly to a changing economy and workforce mix became third tier universities mimicking the courses already provided elsewhere. Mechanical engineering/IT/trades courses became media and performing arts courses
Apprenticeships have a huge value and combined with day release courses benefit everyone
Keeping everyone in full time education till 18 is counterproductive in my view as not everyone is suited to school and leaving earlier into the workplace would be more beneficial for many
My experience of graduates entering the workplace is of generally ill prepared young people, wet behind the ears and no concept of starting at the bottom and grafting their way up .. there’s a real sense of self importance and entitlement with an expectation of progress quickly without effort
In summary we really need to refocus and develop third level education/training that provides a workforce for the skills needed today and tomorrow
The university system seems now to have just turned into a business based on making money for the providers rather than a service providing the future workforce we need
Spot on. Root cause: Blair wanting lower unemployment figures for young people. Everything else just (unintended?) consequences. My opinion is that we lost sight of what we need and how we need to equip and train our young to be a fit for the workforce
Vocational training was thrown in the dustbin of progress ( nursing is probably the biggest example)
Technical colleges that provided skilled workers for local industries and trades, and could react quickly to a changing economy and workforce mix became third tier universities mimicking the courses already provided elsewhere. Mechanical engineering/IT/trades courses became media and performing arts courses
Apprenticeships have a huge value and combined with day release courses benefit everyone
Keeping everyone in full time education till 18 is counterproductive in my view as not everyone is suited to school and leaving earlier into the workplace would be more beneficial for many
My experience of graduates entering the workplace is of generally ill prepared young people, wet behind the ears and no concept of starting at the bottom and grafting their way up .. there’s a real sense of self importance and entitlement with an expectation of progress quickly without effort
In summary we really need to refocus and develop third level education/training that provides a workforce for the skills needed today and tomorrow
The university system seems now to have just turned into a business based on making money for the providers rather than a service providing the future workforce we need
Earthdweller said:
One of the biggest mistakes of the Blair era was the huge push to get everyone into university
My opinion is that we lost sight of what we need and how we need to equip and train our young to be a fit for the workforce
Vocational training was thrown in the dustbin of progress ( nursing is probably the biggest example)
Technical colleges that provided skilled workers for local industries and trades, and could react quickly to a changing economy and workforce mix became third tier universities mimicking the courses already provided elsewhere. Mechanical engineering/IT/trades courses became media and performing arts courses
Apprenticeships have a huge value and combined with day release courses benefit everyone
Keeping everyone in full time education till 18 is counterproductive in my view as not everyone is suited to school and leaving earlier into the workplace would be more beneficial for many
My experience of graduates entering the workplace is of generally ill prepared young people, wet behind the ears and no concept of starting at the bottom and grafting their way up .. there’s a real sense of self importance and entitlement with an expectation of progress quickly without effort
In summary we really need to refocus and develop third level education/training that provides a workforce for the skills needed today and tomorrow
The university system seems now to have just turned into a business based on making money for the providers rather than a service providing the future workforce we need
I agree with all this.My opinion is that we lost sight of what we need and how we need to equip and train our young to be a fit for the workforce
Vocational training was thrown in the dustbin of progress ( nursing is probably the biggest example)
Technical colleges that provided skilled workers for local industries and trades, and could react quickly to a changing economy and workforce mix became third tier universities mimicking the courses already provided elsewhere. Mechanical engineering/IT/trades courses became media and performing arts courses
Apprenticeships have a huge value and combined with day release courses benefit everyone
Keeping everyone in full time education till 18 is counterproductive in my view as not everyone is suited to school and leaving earlier into the workplace would be more beneficial for many
My experience of graduates entering the workplace is of generally ill prepared young people, wet behind the ears and no concept of starting at the bottom and grafting their way up .. there’s a real sense of self importance and entitlement with an expectation of progress quickly without effort
In summary we really need to refocus and develop third level education/training that provides a workforce for the skills needed today and tomorrow
The university system seems now to have just turned into a business based on making money for the providers rather than a service providing the future workforce we need
One example of where the system went wrong is the police service.
Graduate coppers what a terrible idea
Sheepshanks said:
MikeM6 said:
As noted, 22 is not middle age. At that stage the brain is not yet fully formed, so you could argue they are still children at that age!
University is much more than just the degree, for many it's the experience of independence. It gets young people out from under their parents wings and they learn a lot outside of the lectures and seminars they attend. In a time when many under 35s are still living with their parents, it's a formative learning opportunity.
The issue is that it's a way too expensive. I was lucky, tution fees were £9k for the whole thing back then.
We could bring back national service instead.University is much more than just the degree, for many it's the experience of independence. It gets young people out from under their parents wings and they learn a lot outside of the lectures and seminars they attend. In a time when many under 35s are still living with their parents, it's a formative learning opportunity.
The issue is that it's a way too expensive. I was lucky, tution fees were £9k for the whole thing back then.
On the subject of Apprenticeships, I've met 3 types in Engineering. The ones with a brain and ambition, who will eventually go on to greater things. If you tell them, you need to read this publication, they will track it down read it and come back and discuss it
The ones who think they are clever, but actually they aren't. And will eventually peak at 30 at a level they aren't very good at. They have no foresight, and expect to be spoon fed.
And The ones that really shouldn't be allowed out on their own without a minder. 90% are in the middle bracket. 5% in the other 2 groups
Of those that went direct to university 70% in the first group, 29% in the second group.
There has been one lad I met, who hasn't done an apprenticeship or a degree, has managed somehow to get himself a title Engineer. By job hoping from assembly line worker, to end of linevtest operator, to incoming goods inspector, to warranty investigation technician, to quality technician, and now Quality engineer. Along the way he's blagged some NVQs and managed to get some Six Sigma training.
We were both looking at the same manufacturing problem and so I suggested we work together. f
k me, it was torture. He knew nothing, spouted buzz words and made massive assumptions that had already sent him in the wrong direction for months. He'd declared the problems fixed to the customer, but the problem had come back. Give him credit, though. He was still fooling everyone. We both moved on.
He's now working in supplier quality in aerospace.
markymarkthree said:
I'm 34, went to school and college, had part time jobs along side college and was due to go uni, but instead enjoyed having money so carried on working. Been with my current company nearly 15 years now, worked my way up.
I've got a mate who didn't start working till he was about 35 (hes older than me) literally just dossing around, apparently now hes the hardest worker ever.
defblade said:
Spot on. Root cause: Blair wanting lower unemployment figures for young people. Everything else just (unintended?) consequences.
I'm not sure how it would lover unemployment figures unless it actually meant that MORE people were in jobs 
If it was intended as some kind of ruse to lower the unemployment figures it would only work for 3 years. After that they'd be back up to where they were previously
Countdown said:
I'm not sure how it would lover unemployment figures unless it actually meant that MORE people were in jobs
If it was intended as some kind of ruse to lower the unemployment figures it would only work for 3 years. After that they'd be back up to where they were previously
Leave school at 18, don't work equals unemployed,go uni equals not unemployed and increased chance of getting work with a degree was the theory,only problem lots of the courses didn't assist in finding a career,you may well remember there was a notorious degree course studying David Beckham !If it was intended as some kind of ruse to lower the unemployment figures it would only work for 3 years. After that they'd be back up to where they were previously
Ivan stewart said:
Seems our young are headed for middle age before they start to contribute anything to society,swaning about in universities getting a pointless degree and then a bog standard job in their twenties, wouldn’t it be better if most kid’s left school at 16 worked and did part time further education?
Keep sending the very best to the red brick university’s and turn the others back into technical colleges??
By very best, what you actually mean is the privately educated middle class. Keep sending the very best to the red brick university’s and turn the others back into technical colleges??
Who was it on here that said all the talented poor students are catered for via bursaries
Countdown said:
I'm not sure how it would lover unemployment figures unless it actually meant that MORE people were in jobs
If it was intended as some kind of ruse to lower the unemployment figures it would only work for 3 years. After that they'd be back up to where they were previously
If it was intended as some kind of ruse to lower the unemployment figures it would only work for 3 years. After that they'd be back up to where they were previously
2009 said:
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