Birmingham Transport Plan, remove parking spaces
Discussion
This is basically inevitable for all our cities isn't it?
The annoying truth is that we can't build our cities around cars any more. There are just too many people, and if you have to get lots of them into one place and back again then cars are the least efficient way of doing it by some way. On top of that, cars need an enormous amount of space, infrastructure and the money to build and maintain it all.
All this is only going to get worse as the population continues to grow so at some point I think we're going to have to accept reality and make public transport the priority.
God knows how we achieve that given the state of things at the moment but the positive is that the better the public transport, the emptier the roads.
The annoying truth is that we can't build our cities around cars any more. There are just too many people, and if you have to get lots of them into one place and back again then cars are the least efficient way of doing it by some way. On top of that, cars need an enormous amount of space, infrastructure and the money to build and maintain it all.
All this is only going to get worse as the population continues to grow so at some point I think we're going to have to accept reality and make public transport the priority.
God knows how we achieve that given the state of things at the moment but the positive is that the better the public transport, the emptier the roads.
durbster said:
This is basically inevitable for all our cities isn't it?
The annoying truth is that we can't build our cities around cars any more. There are just too many people, and if you have to get lots of them into one place and back again then cars are the least efficient way of doing it by some way. On top of that, cars need an enormous amount of space, infrastructure and the money to build and maintain it all.
All this is only going to get worse as the population continues to grow so at some point I think we're going to have to accept reality and make public transport the priority.
The positive of that is that the better the public transport, the emptier the roads.
What trips up those behind this agenda is the unintended consequences. One of the reasons central London is more congested than ever is they number of mini cabs and delivery vans. So rather than get on public transport like good worker serfs people get things delivered or use a cab to get around rather than their own car. The annoying truth is that we can't build our cities around cars any more. There are just too many people, and if you have to get lots of them into one place and back again then cars are the least efficient way of doing it by some way. On top of that, cars need an enormous amount of space, infrastructure and the money to build and maintain it all.
All this is only going to get worse as the population continues to grow so at some point I think we're going to have to accept reality and make public transport the priority.
The positive of that is that the better the public transport, the emptier the roads.
durbster said:
This is basically inevitable for all our cities isn't it?
The annoying truth is that we can't build our cities around cars any more. There are just too many people, and if you have to get lots of them into one place and back again then cars are the least efficient way of doing it by some way. On top of that, cars need an enormous amount of space, infrastructure and the money to build and maintain it all.
All this is only going to get worse as the population continues to grow so at some point I think we're going to have to accept reality and make public transport the priority.
God knows how we achieve that given the state of things at the moment but the positive is that the better the public transport, the emptier the roads.
Working public transport has been a pipe dream for longer than I have been on this Earth. It's problems are unsurmountable. It isn't ever going to work. The annoying truth is that we can't build our cities around cars any more. There are just too many people, and if you have to get lots of them into one place and back again then cars are the least efficient way of doing it by some way. On top of that, cars need an enormous amount of space, infrastructure and the money to build and maintain it all.
All this is only going to get worse as the population continues to grow so at some point I think we're going to have to accept reality and make public transport the priority.
God knows how we achieve that given the state of things at the moment but the positive is that the better the public transport, the emptier the roads.
What will happen instead is people will be prevented from travelling. Those "fifteen minute cities" are going to go from "why would you want to travel outside your zone" to "you are not allowed to travel outside your zone" really f
king quickly.
Quhet said:
horseshoecrab said:
Eh? You'd rather have this? Taking priority away from car use has literally led to billions of pounds of investment
FiF said:
Thought there was "No war on the motorist."
Edited, I forgot to include the proposal 20mph standard limit, except strategic roads, 30mph.
Safe to say, assuming still driving by the time this comes to fruition in 5/7 years will be avoiding the place. Pretty much avoid it now. Hell hole.
I live in Edgbaston and the quickest way for most people on my side of the city to get to Spaghetti Junction is to drive into town and join the urban motorway literally 100m from New Street Station. It's frankly insane.Edited, I forgot to include the proposal 20mph standard limit, except strategic roads, 30mph.
Safe to say, assuming still driving by the time this comes to fruition in 5/7 years will be avoiding the place. Pretty much avoid it now. Hell hole.
Breaking the concrete collar at Masshouse around 15 years ago was the first step to making a more llivable and walkable city. It took away some crappy car parks but didn't stop people driving into town. It did lead to the creation of several thousand new dwellings, a park, massive expansion of one of the city universities and an incoming HS2 station. The Clean Air Zone was the first big nudge to get people out of cars and this is being followed by carving up the city centre like a trivial pursuit cheese so that traffic has to go around rather than through. This has been handily aided by the Curzon Street HS2 development and the new Metro line through Digbeth.
If I have a meeting in London or go shopping in Oxford Street I don't expect to drive there. Cars are being pushed out of Birmingham city centre and although directly affected by this everyday I generally support what is being done but only if public transport options are in place. The city core is set to expand enormously out to the A4540 Middleway. It's already a more pleasant experience but if you want to avoid the place it's probably for the best.
Plenty of places got into a mess in the 1950s-1970s by planning around the car, Birmingham included (how many here complain that it's a concrete s
thole?). Movement away from this will obviously cause some short term pain but it should bear fruit - just look at how Danish and German Cities have been able to do it.As for the public transport in the surrounding areas who commute into Birmingham, that has to improve by many factors more than the City network. From Worcester, Droitwich Bromsgrove, Ledbury, Malvern, Bewdley, Wyre Forest, Hagley. Just to name things coming from one direction. These have, pretty much rural transport networks, made worse by unreliability.
It's a major task, needs more than Birmingham on its own can cope with.
Does the ‘outdoor hospitality’ descriptor include the copious aroma stench of skunk that I noticed when walking to Fairdeal Music on Saturday from a nearby back street where the meter was buggered and the published payment phone number inoperative.
Great music shop; but I won’t be going there on a bus so prolly won’t be going there again… QED
Great music shop; but I won’t be going there on a bus so prolly won’t be going there again… QED
Edited by Pupp on Monday 22 January 18:42
FiF said:
In principle I don't disagree with the view that public transport has to match. Currently the public transport in Birmingham wouod have to improve significantly.
As for the public transport in the surrounding areas who commute into Birmingham, that has to improve by many factors more than the City network. From Worcester, Droitwich Bromsgrove, Ledbury, Malvern, Bewdley, Wyre Forest, Hagley. Just to name things coming from one direction. These have, pretty much rural transport networks, made worse by unreliability.
It's a major task, needs more than Birmingham on its own can cope with.
That's where park and ride comes in. Like it or not, it's fairly straightforward to drive to a station like Selly Oak, King's Norton, Longbridge etc and then get the train in. Its what hundreds if not thousands do everyday for workAs for the public transport in the surrounding areas who commute into Birmingham, that has to improve by many factors more than the City network. From Worcester, Droitwich Bromsgrove, Ledbury, Malvern, Bewdley, Wyre Forest, Hagley. Just to name things coming from one direction. These have, pretty much rural transport networks, made worse by unreliability.
It's a major task, needs more than Birmingham on its own can cope with.
They have a habit of not only fking it for car drivers, but fking it for van drivers too. People expect working electricity, network, security and plumbing but make it impossible for the pepole who have to make it happen.
Before making these decisions the politicians should be denied all the services provided by van drivers for a year and see what they think of the outcome.
king it for car drivers, but fking it for van drivers too. People expect working electricity, network, security and plumbing but make it impossible for the pepole who have to make it happen.Before making these decisions the politicians should be denied all the services provided by van drivers for a year and see what they think of the outcome.
OldGermanHeaps said:
They have a habit of not only fking it for car drivers, but fking it for van drivers too. People expect working electricity, network, security and plumbing but make it impossible for the pepole who have to make it happen.
They often manage to fking it for car drivers, but fking it for van drivers too. People expect working electricity, network, security and plumbing but make it impossible for the pepole who have to make it happen.k it for the buses as well! Closing roads and creating congestion does tend to slow them down somewhat…Quhet said:
That's where park and ride comes in. Like it or not, it's fairly straightforward to drive to a station like Selly Oak, King's Norton, Longbridge etc and then get the train in. Its what hundreds if not thousands do everyday for work
Presume I don't do M-F/9-5 but actually work at times for which public transport doesn't really provide. Further presume that I don't work in an office but actually do physical things that need tools & materials. How the hell am I supposed to transport my equipment for work?These are rhetorical questions because I don't really think you have an answer other than platitudes & vague reassurance that it will somehow not be a problem. I'd love for there to be a simple answer based on public transport but I've tried & there isn't.
Quhet said:
That's where park and ride comes in. Like it or not, it's fairly straightforward to drive to a station like Selly Oak, King's Norton, Longbridge etc and then get the train in. Its what hundreds if not thousands do everyday for work
That's fine if you are traveling for work carrying little and travelling in peak hours, but is pretty unpleasant if you have gone into town to go shopping and now have a load of bags or are travelling in for the evening and have the late night travel back on the bus to the deserted park and ride car park.I don't live near Brum anymore but I've watched it change over the years. I used to work in Digbeth in the 1980s and hadn't been back there (to Digbeth specifically) for decades when, two years ago I did an "escorted cycle event" around the whole city and was surprised how the once rather oppressively tall brick walls that made up Digbeth's factories and warehouses now housed bars and restaurants, and there was balustrade lighting across some of the streets. It was alive on a Tuesday evening (summer) with people dressed smartly and going out for entertainment.
Seemed like a bit of a success to me and that was only a small part of it.
The cycle paths into the city from the north afford riders a "green wave" mostly, as traffic lights prioritise them over motorists. That said, no-one in their right mind would go into Brum with a bicycle and leave it anywhere to go shopping. It wouldn't be there upon your return. That needs fixing in every city in my opinion.
My friend lives in Stockport, about two miles from a tram station that takes you directly into Manchester centre. It has a large car park, with lots of EV chargers so it caters for everyone. I went there for a concert with him and really enjoyed the town centre which was not 100% free from traffic but definitely benefitted from very minimal traffic, and many pedestrianised areas. If Birmingham can pull off something like that, it should help it's future. I do not believe having a city centre accessible to private cars is in any way a good thing but they WILL need to provide parking outside of the centre with very regular bus or tram services from those car parks. If getting into a town centre is slow and painful, people just won't go.
Seemed like a bit of a success to me and that was only a small part of it.
The cycle paths into the city from the north afford riders a "green wave" mostly, as traffic lights prioritise them over motorists. That said, no-one in their right mind would go into Brum with a bicycle and leave it anywhere to go shopping. It wouldn't be there upon your return. That needs fixing in every city in my opinion.
My friend lives in Stockport, about two miles from a tram station that takes you directly into Manchester centre. It has a large car park, with lots of EV chargers so it caters for everyone. I went there for a concert with him and really enjoyed the town centre which was not 100% free from traffic but definitely benefitted from very minimal traffic, and many pedestrianised areas. If Birmingham can pull off something like that, it should help it's future. I do not believe having a city centre accessible to private cars is in any way a good thing but they WILL need to provide parking outside of the centre with very regular bus or tram services from those car parks. If getting into a town centre is slow and painful, people just won't go.
Biggy Stardust said:
Quhet said:
That's where park and ride comes in. Like it or not, it's fairly straightforward to drive to a station like Selly Oak, King's Norton, Longbridge etc and then get the train in. Its what hundreds if not thousands do everyday for work
Presume I don't do M-F/9-5 but actually work at times for which public transport doesn't really provide. Further presume that I don't work in an office but actually do physical things that need tools & materials. How the hell am I supposed to transport my equipment for work?These are rhetorical questions because I don't really think you have an answer other than platitudes & vague reassurance that it will somehow not be a problem. I'd love for there to be a simple answer based on public transport but I've tried & there isn't.
But for every car/van on the road that's:
- Carrying someone disabled
- Carrying tools
- Carrying multiple passengers
- Carrying shift workers
etc.
there's 10 vehicles carrying a single occupant who works in an office 9-5 and getting in the way of everyone.
So if we can convince just 10/20/30% of those people to convert to non-car use, then it reduces congestion massively.
Guybrush said:
Pupp said:
Predominantly ‘motoring’ oriented forum in apparent consensus to prevent folk motoring shock horror.
Glad I’m old(ish)
It's amazing isn't it (amusing even) how easily people are brainwashed / manipulated into complying with big brother's wishes.Glad I’m old(ish)
It is a million miles from fun motoring.
bigee said:
Guybrush said:
Pupp said:
Predominantly ‘motoring’ oriented forum in apparent consensus to prevent folk motoring shock horror.
Glad I’m old(ish)
It's amazing isn't it (amusing even) how easily people are brainwashed / manipulated into complying with big brother's wishes.Glad I’m old(ish)
Edited by ATG on Monday 22 January 23:17
oyster said:
As a car enthusiast, there's little that I can think of worse than driving and a parking in a city centre.
It is a million miles from fun motoring.
It is a million miles from fun motoring.
My thoughts entirely, the less largely pointless urban journeys made by car will hopefully mean less pointless urbanites feeling the need to have a car for every member of the household.
bigee said:
Guybrush said:
Pupp said:
Predominantly ‘motoring’ oriented forum in apparent consensus to prevent folk motoring shock horror.
Glad I’m old(ish)
It's amazing isn't it (amusing even) how easily people are brainwashed / manipulated into complying with big brother's wishes.Glad I’m old(ish)
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