Venal scumbags running P&O still venal scumbags...

[LimaDelta]

S600BSB said:

Always avoid P&O.

Do you avoid buying goods which are imported via ships employing crew in exactly the same way under the same maritime laws?

[Police State]

ChocolateFrog said:

It is a scandal.

I genuinely don't know how the bosses reconcile their consciences while they no doubt live comfortably off the backs of modern slavery.

They just avoid mirrors.

[Dog Star]

biggles330d said:

Last summer we went to Europe on the Ferry - Hull to Rotterdam - on P&O. I'll admit to holding my nose and booking against my better judgement but they were appreciably less costly than the DFDS alternative.
Thats probably the nub of the issue. People vote with their wallets.

While the staff were actually really good, interested, well presented, attentive, polite and enthusiastically hard working, I don't think I'd choose to use P&O again as it felt like a company whose assets are tired and having to scrimp and save.

I mentioned this on another thread the other day. I’ve always enjoyed the P&O North Sea routes to Zeebrugge (now no more) and Rotterdam. Always been a pleasure. However after the mass redundancy saga Mrs DS, who is a card carry Labour member and Guardian subscriber, forbade us using them. So it was DFDS via Newcastle to Amsterdam. Quite a bit more of a drive and maybe £100 more. However it’s still a million times better than driving to Dover.

However the other day I was booking a 5 day crossing for our anniversary. DFDS were (forget exactly) about £940 which is simply mind blowing. We simply cannot afford that. P&O for a directly comparable crossing (same dates etc) were literally half the price. In fact it’s only a few extra each way to upgrade to an outside four berth cabin. Even Mrs DS had to shelve her principles at this point. Factor in drinks and meals and DFDS would have been an eye watering £1100 at least.

Aside from the “management” DFDS also seem to employ a lot of staff of what appears to be a similar ethnic origin to the P&O staff - I wonder what their pay regime is - I suspect it’s similar and it’s just common practice.

[Taffer]

LimaDelta said:

Do you avoid buying goods which are imported via ships employing crew in exactly the same way under the same maritime laws?

Slightly disingenuous argument - with local crews, port towns like Hull, Dover, etc had the benefit of the crew wages going into and helping the local economy. Over on the continent, the thought of Stena losing their Swedish crew or Viking Line their Finnish crew (on similar international routes) would be unlikely to be considered, and their T&Cs are better than most UK ferry companies.

Just because P&O could do what they did under the law, doesn't mean they should have.

[Electro1980]

LimaDelta said:

S600BSB said:

Always avoid P&O.

Do you avoid buying goods which are imported via ships employing crew in exactly the same way under the same maritime laws?

“It’s not perfect, so why bother at all” is a very poor argument. Most people are against slavery, but also aware there is no way they can know or control the fully supply chain of everything.

[2xChevrons]

Dog Star said:

DFDS were (forget exactly) about £940 which is simply mind blowing. We simply cannot afford that. P&O for a directly comparable crossing (same dates etc) were literally half the price. In fact it’s only a few extra each way to upgrade to an outside four berth cabin. Even Mrs DS had to shelve her principles at this point. Factor in drinks and meals and DFDS would have been an eye watering £1100 at least.

And that's how capitalism works, baby!

It's all well and good putting the onus on consumers as individuals to make choices in line with their personal ethics (the 'if customers care so much about ferry crew pay and conditions they'll pay the cost' stance) but since it is always cheaper (at least the in the short term, and often in the long term as well) to put worker T&Cs as low as the employer can get away with, there will always be at least one operator out there willing to do that to make more profit. And those same incentives also squeeze the T&Cs, and raise the costs, of every consumer out there, so they are incentivised/compelled to make choices like your P&O/DFDS one.

Outside pure market forces there are other factors in play, though. There are now no British-flagged, British-owned, British-crewed ferries plying the Channel. I really doubt that, whether for reasons of national pride, labour protection or strategic interest, the French, Norwegians, Swedes, Finns, Spanish, Italians etc. would accept a similar situation in their home waters, regardless of how much profit it made or how low consumer prices could be driven.

[Dog Star]

I agree, but there comes a point when some companies simply price themselves out of the equation. We were actually going to not bother until I checked the P&O price. I just thought ferries had got stupid expensive.

If you’re so wealthy that you can take a £500 hit for your principles then fair enough.

I salve my conscience a bit knowing that they still employ some folk in the UK.

[paulguitar]

Fast and Spurious said:

Click-bait rubbish from the guardian.

How so? The headline simply states a fact, unless I have misunderstood. What am I missing?

[bloomen]

If it's legal ish and employees are willing to do it then it's going to happen.

I seem to recall Condor Ferries having a bunch of Ukrainians imprisoned on their boats at £2.46 an hour a while back.

[Stick Legs]

SlimJim16v said:

12hr days, 7 days a week for months at a time with no days off.

That’s ships.

My company we work scheduled hours of 12/day but regularly exceed that, providing we stay with in the hours of rest regulations it’s okay.

Now we work 3 weeks on 3 weeks off, but when I used to work with Phillipines crew they wanted 10 month contracts with 4 months off so they could get more money quicker. We offered 6 months on 3 months off
A lot of seafarers are not in it for the long haul & want 2-5 years to set themselves up at home.

Hours of rest requires:

6 hours minimum continuous rest in any 24 hours.
10 hours minimum rest in any 24, may be broken into 2 periods, one must be 6 hours as above.
77 hours total rest per week.

Maximum period on board must not exceed 12 months.

Edited by Stick Legs on Tuesday 19th March 12:42

[LimaDelta]

Electro1980 said:

“It’s not perfect, so why bother at all” is a very poor argument. Most people are against slavery, but also aware there is no way they can know or control the fully supply chain of everything.

To call it slavery shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation. As someone who has worked extensively with foreign sea farers for many years, I can say few of them felt exploited, and all would take exception to being described as 'slaves'. They are paid poorly by UK standards, yes, but live very well in their home countries. What some here consider exploitation (Guardian take note), they see as an opportunity to better their lives in a massive way. The only people exploiting foreign crews are the recruitment agencies which expect back-handers from candidates to get them these 'terrible' jobs in the first place.

[paulguitar]

Stick Legs said:

77 hours total rest per day.

Sounds pretty cushy.

[oyster]

LimaDelta said:

Electro1980 said:

“It’s not perfect, so why bother at all” is a very poor argument. Most people are against slavery, but also aware there is no way they can know or control the fully supply chain of everything.

To call it slavery shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation. As someone who has worked extensively with foreign sea farers for many years, I can say few of them felt exploited, and all would take exception to being described as 'slaves'. They are paid poorly by UK standards, yes, but live very well in their home countries. What some here consider exploitation (Guardian take note), they see as an opportunity to better their lives in a massive way. The only people exploiting foreign crews are the recruitment agencies which expect back-handers from candidates to get them these 'terrible' jobs in the first place.

I didn't think Electro1980 was mentioning slavery in direct reference to the P&O Ferries article. I thought it was a more generic point to counter your (very oblique and weak) whataboutism.

[Tankrizzo]

Stick Legs said:

Maximum period on boars must not exceed 12 months.

That's a good effort, they are vicious little buggers.

[LimaDelta]

oyster said:

I didn't think Electro1980 was mentioning slavery in direct reference to the P&O Ferries article. I thought it was a more generic point to counter your (very oblique and weak) whataboutism.

It wasn't whataboutism at all, why should anyone care more about ferry crew welfare than containership crew welfare? If they are making a moral stand over one, then why not the other?

The fact is that both operate under the same MLC rules.

[Stick Legs]

paulguitar said:

Stick Legs said:

77 hours total rest per day.

Sounds pretty cushy.

Yeah well I’m the Captain.

[Stick Legs]

Tankrizzo said:

That's a good effort, they are vicious little buggers.

edited my spelling.

[Rusty Old-Banger]

Stick Legs said:

SlimJim16v said:

12hr days, 7 days a week for months at a time with no days off.

That’s ships.

My company we work scheduled hours of 12/day but regularly exceed that, providing we stay with in the hours of rest regulations it’s okay.

Now we work 3 weeks on 3 weeks off, but when I used to work with Phillipines crew they wanted 10 month contracts with 4 months off so they could get more money quicker. We offered 6 months on 3 months off
A lot of seafarers are not in it for the long haul & want 2-5 years to set themselves up at home.

Hours of rest requires:

6 hours minimum continuous rest in any 24 hours.
10 hours minimum rest in any 24, may be broken into 2 periods, one must be 6 hours as above.
77 hours total rest per week.

Maximum period on board must not exceed 12 months.

Edited by Stick Legs on Tuesday 19th March 12:42

Be quiet with your knowledge and experience.

There's indignation to be had and high horses to be sat upon.

[Rusty Old-Banger]

oyster said:

LimaDelta said:

Electro1980 said:

“It’s not perfect, so why bother at all” is a very poor argument. Most people are against slavery, but also aware there is no way they can know or control the fully supply chain of everything.

To call it slavery shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation. As someone who has worked extensively with foreign sea farers for many years, I can say few of them felt exploited, and all would take exception to being described as 'slaves'. They are paid poorly by UK standards, yes, but live very well in their home countries. What some here consider exploitation (Guardian take note), they see as an opportunity to better their lives in a massive way. The only people exploiting foreign crews are the recruitment agencies which expect back-handers from candidates to get them these 'terrible' jobs in the first place.

I didn't think Electro1980 was mentioning slavery in direct reference to the P&O Ferries article. I thought it was a more generic point to counter your (very oblique and weak) whataboutism.

See, I think he was obviously making the direct correlation between the maritime workers and slaves, given the context of the OP.

Either that or it was a very hyperbolic form of whataboutism. Almost Godwin-like.

Regardless, there are people on this thread with direct knowledge of the topic, who are giving their opinion, and being browbeaten by the usual kneejerking empty vessels for having the wrong knowledge and opinion

[Disastrous]

Dog Star said:

I agree, but there comes a point when some companies simply price themselves out of the equation. We were actually going to not bother until I checked the P&O price. I just thought ferries had got stupid expensive.

If you’re so wealthy that you can take a £500 hit for your principles then fair enough.

I salve my conscience a bit knowing that they still employ some folk in the UK.

But if P&O didn’t exist, you wouldn’t have a choice, so you’d just have to not go if you can’t afford DFDS prices.

They won’t see a penny from me. I’ll take the hit and go by DFDS or not go at all (family in Europe so take the Ijmuiden route a lot).