Boys held over 'shocking' attack

[Fittster]

Rob. said:

I think with greater and easier access to violence on the internet and computer games more 10/11 year olds are carrying out violent acts upon there peers. Pathological tendencies may not be suddenly developing but I think it is slowly happening.

I wasn't aware their was any evidence that violence on the internet and computer games caused children to be more agressive. In this case the children are from a broken home and were in care, which maybe as large a factor as the computer games and websites they had access to.

[Rob.]

I was`nt aware of any evidence that children from a broken home and in care caused them to be more aggressive either.

[otolith]

From the Daily Wail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1167708/It...

Wail said:

The mother of two boys suspected of torturing two young playmates before throwing one into a ravine has denied any responsibility for their alleged actions.

Both boys being held by police had been put in care by Doncaster Council, whose children's services department was recently described as 'chaotic and dangerous' following the death of seven vulnerable youngsters.

They had been living with foster parents after their mother told social services she could not control them. Yesterday, she told The Sun newspaper: 'It's got nowt to do with me - they weren't even in my care.'

That, in a nutshell, is the root of the problem. She's reared monsters, and she doesn't think she bears any responsibility for it. Has she ever taken any responsibility for them? There is always an element of chance, and well raised children can go off the rails later in life, but I believe that the old Jesuit saying is by and large true - "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man".

Edited by otolith on Tuesday 7th April 14:45

[jasmine]

"studies have used video material which is more typical of interpersonal aggression in broadcast television programmes. Liebert and Baron (1972) conducted an experiment using real television programmes, in which they measured the willingness of children to hurt another child after watching a programme. In a laboratory, children were shown either a race track or an aggressive programme and then allowed either to facilitate or disrupt another child's game. They could hurt the other child by pressing a button to make the handle hot which the child was holding. The children who had seen the aggressive programme were significantly more aggressive than those who had seen the non-aggressive programme. This was particularly the case with boys. In addition, when the children were later observed at play, those who had viewed the aggressive programme showed a stronger preference for playing with weapons and aggressive toys than did the other children."

From: http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Modules/TF33120/tv-vio...

But there are of course, many variables in influencing anyone's behaviour and there are many long term influences that should be taken into account. One of these influences is the family setting and if a child is exposed to unhealthy influences as you may find in a 'broken' home, then that can have a detrimental effect. Not always, but often.

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?...

As far as the perceived increase in children committing crimes, its worth bearing in mind the other factors in this - the increase and availability of the media, the change in definition of crime and the change in definition of 'child' or 'childhood'.

Anyway..... blah, blah, blah......

[Fittster]

Rob. said:

I was`nt aware of any evidence that children from a broken home and in care caused them to be more aggressive either.

"Government statistics show that 49 per cent of children in care go straight to prison. With 56,000 children in the British care system today, that means 28,000 are set to receive custodial sentences."

source

[staceyb]

They've now been charged with attemted murder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire...

[Fittster]

jasmine said:

"studies have used video material which is more typical of interpersonal aggression in broadcast television programmes. Liebert and Baron (1972) conducted an experiment using real television programmes, in which they measured the willingness of children to hurt another child after watching a programme. In a laboratory, children were shown either a race track or an aggressive programme and then allowed either to facilitate or disrupt another child's game. They could hurt the other child by pressing a button to make the handle hot which the child was holding. The children who had seen the aggressive programme were significantly more aggressive than those who had seen the non-aggressive programme. This was particularly the case with boys. In addition, when the children were later observed at play, those who had viewed the aggressive programme showed a stronger preference for playing with weapons and aggressive toys than did the other children."

From: http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Modules/TF33120/tv-vio...

But there are of course, many variables in influencing anyone's behaviour and there are many long term influences that should be taken into account. One of these influences is the family setting and if a child is exposed to unhealthy influences as you may find in a 'broken' home, then that can have a detrimental effect. Not always, but often.

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?...

As far as the perceived increase in children committing crimes, its worth bearing in mind the other factors in this - the increase and availability of the media, the change in definition of crime and the change in definition of 'child' or 'childhood'.

Anyway..... blah, blah, blah......

Grand Theft Childhood

Drs. Lawrence Kutner and Cheryl K. Olson, co-founders and directors of the Harvard Medical School Center for Mental Health and Media, began a $1.5 million study funded by the U.S. Department of Justice on the effects of video games on young teenagers. In contrast to previous research, they studied real children and families in real situations


It is uncommon for girls to be frequent, heavy players of video games, especially violent games. One third of girls in our survey played electronic games for less than an hour per week on average.

By contrast, it was unusual for boys to rarely or never play video games; just 8% of boys played for less than an hour per week. (Since game play is often a social activity for boys, nonparticipation could be a marker of social difficulties. These boys were also more likely than others to report problems such as getting into fights or trouble with teachers.)

Finally, boys and girls who exclusively play games alone are atypical.

In our survey of young adolescents, we found significant correlations between routine play of M-rated games and greater self-reported involvement in physical fights, with a stronger association for girls.

It is likely that aggressive or hostile youths may be drawn to violent games. There is limited but suggestive evidence that persons with trait anger or aggression may be affected differently by violent games.

In one study, players tended to be less angry after playing a violent game, but this was not true for subjects who scored high on trait anger and aggression. Thus, another possible marker of unhealthy video game use may be increased anger after a round of play.

It must be emphasized that correlational studies, including ours, cannot show whether video games cause particular behaviors. Far too frequently, this important distinction between correlation and causation is overlooked.

[jasmine]

I'm not totally sure which point you're making.

However, its safe to say that nothing is the result of just one variable

[Fittster]

jasmine said:

I'm not totally sure which point you're making.

However, its safe to say that nothing is the result of just one variable

I'm saying its far more likely that they turned out to be scum bags because they came from a broken home and then went into care than what games or video they have had access to.

[jasmine]

Fittster said:

jasmine said:

I'm not totally sure which point you're making.

However, its safe to say that nothing is the result of just one variable

I'm saying its far more likely that they turned out to be scum bags because they came from a broken home and then went into care than what games or video they have had access to.

Right ok. I think its probably a combination of many factors.

[theturbs]

staceyb said:

They've now been charged with attemted murder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire...

Just seen this. What will actually happen as a result?

[vz-r_dave]

Cant they just castrate the men that produce these little monsters. I mean come on isnt this the real problem. One scabby pikey who commits enough crime himself shags some dirt bird and they produce more scum. wo 15 year old chavs attempting to bring up a baby. It just doesnt work, council estates are a very sorry affair, all you need is 2 or 3 kids to br brought up by a of a family and it rubs off on the poor bds that could have had a good life had they not been living there.

[Rob.]

Fittster said:

Rob. said:

I was`nt aware of any evidence that children from a broken home and in care caused them to be more aggressive either.

"Government statistics show that 49 per cent of children in care go straight to prison. With 56,000 children in the British care system today, that means 28,000 are set to receive custodial sentences."

source

I wasn`t doubting there was any. I just was`nt aware of any.

I stand corrected said the man in the orthopedic shoes!

[staceyb]

theturbs said:

staceyb said:

They've now been charged with attemted murder.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire...

Just seen this. What will actually happen as a result?

Not a lot probably.

[Lemmonie]

Well if the Jamie Bulger case is anything to go by they'll get locked up for a short while with all the video games they could wish for and then chucked out to live a normal life after having their identities changed to protect them. All at our cost.

Scum the pair of them

[s3fella]

Lemmonie said:

Well if the Jamie Bulger case is anything to go by they'll get locked up for a short while with all the video games they could wish for and then chucked out to live a normal life after having their identities changed to protect them. All at our cost.

Scum the pair of them

You forgot the bit where at least one of them will become a gayer!

[Jasandjules]

With all due respect to those suggesting that it is playing video games or watching TV - children hundreds of years ago went to watch public executions. Head back further than that and children were captured by force (their parents/villagers killed raped etc) etc..

People are violent, we are animals, we have territory and we have aggression against others of our species. We always have, and we always will.

Speedchick - silly question, but when your son does something wrong is he punished for it? DO you carry out your punishments?

[speedchick]

Jasandjules said:

Speedchick - silly question, but when your son does something wrong is he punished for it? DO you carry out your punishments?

Not a silly question at all, yes he does get punished. I have tried everything in the book, but nothing at all seems to have an effect on him, he just shrugs them off and gets on with it. It seems he can live without his computer, the tv, going out with the family, going out at all and everything else in between.

We haven't only tried the taking stuff away, I will confess to using smacking too, and again, it's something else that he just takes in his stride.

When he is behaving, he is a totally different child, it's just that every now and then he 'blips' and becomes the child of the devil, when he's like that, he doesn't respond to anything and fails to see what the problem is.

[jasmine]

speedchick said:

Jasandjules said:

Speedchick - silly question, but when your son does something wrong is he punished for it? DO you carry out your punishments?

Not a silly question at all, yes he does get punished. I have tried everything in the book, but nothing at all seems to have an effect on him, he just shrugs them off and gets on with it. It seems he can live without his computer, the tv, going out with the family, going out at all and everything else in between.

We haven't only tried the taking stuff away, I will confess to using smacking too, and again, it's something else that he just takes in his stride.

When he is behaving, he is a totally different child, it's just that every now and then he 'blips' and becomes the child of the devil, when he's like that, he doesn't respond to anything and fails to see what the problem is.

Do you tell him what you do want him to do rather than just what you don't want from him? Do you use incentives for good behaviour and do you follow through on the incentives?

Although he may seem to shrug off the punishments of witholding things, it could be that he's found its a way to effectively maniupulate you into not taking things away.

[speedchick]

He doesn't seem to mind when we with hold things from him. It just flows over him.

And yes we do tell him what we expect of him, things like behaving in class, doing his homework, keeping his room tidy etc and we do offer incentives for this, and follow through with them, at the moment his 'treat' for doing as he is asked is that he is being taught how to fly on Flight Simulator.