MS Monopoly

[TeamD]

miniman said:

TeamD said:

miniman said:

TeamD said:

Yeah, right, whatever. Whilst I truly believe that MS are a bunch of a-holes, I still don't believe that all the Netscape Clones are any better.

Do you build a lot of websites?

No, but why would I want to? That's for kids to do, it's what they reckon passes for programming these days

Just wondered what you based your belief that none of the Netscape clones are any better on. If you built websites, you would realise that you are talking ste.

Cobblers, I write code that writes web pages and IE works very nicely thanks. So I put it to you that you're talking ste

Although IE 8 seems to have a huge memory leak at the moment

[miniman]

IE is **still** not standards compliant. It is very easy to "make it work" but the fact remains one shouldn't have to put hacks into the HTML and CSS to get around Microsoft's refusal to comply with the accepted standards. If you don't care about web standards, you are in the wrong job.

[DJC]

PMSL.

Web standards? Oh stop it, yer killing me!

[TeamD]

miniman said:

IE is **still** not standards compliant. It is very easy to "make it work" but the fact remains one shouldn't have to put hacks into the HTML and CSS to get around Microsoft's refusal to comply with the accepted standards. If you don't care about web standards, you are in the wrong job.

I care about stuff that works in the situation that I want to use it, so you can stick your "standards" where the sun doesn't shine. And besides, who the feck are you to tell me what job I should or should not be in?

Besides, your example web sites suck

Edited by TeamD on Wednesday 1st July 17:25

[cazzer]

Standards
Love it.



Why should microsoft have to supply someone elses browser?

Do ford provide mondeos with vauxhall radios as an option?
It's a product, you buy it. It includes a browser thats built in.
Same as you buy a ford, it has a ford radio built in. If you want to fit an aftermarket radio you live with the fact the connectors are different etc.


The EU needs to wake up and understand MS is a business. And business do things to tie you in.
Don't like it? Buy a Mac.

[miniman]

TeamD said:

miniman said:

IE is **still** not standards compliant. It is very easy to "make it work" but the fact remains one shouldn't have to put hacks into the HTML and CSS to get around Microsoft's refusal to comply with the accepted standards. If you don't care about web standards, you are in the wrong job.

I care about stuff that works in the situation that I want to use it, so you can stick your "standards" where the sun doesn't shine. And besides, who the feck are you to tell me what job I should or should not be in?

Besides, your example web sites suck

Which example web sites?

Unfortunately for the vast majority of us "the situation that I want to use it in" means that it has to work for visually impaired people, motor impaired people, search engines, mobile device users and so forth. The easiest way to achieve that is to comply with web standards. It's not some kind of geeky thing.

[miniman]

cazzer said:

Same as you buy a ford, it has a ford radio built in. If you want to fit an aftermarket radio you live with the fact the connectors are different etc.

Eh? What do you think the "ISO" in ISO Connector means?

[cazzer]

Tell that to the people that made the half a dozen radios I have with different connectors on the back

[TeamD]

The examples here

The thing is, some of us don't just use IE as a browser, we use it as a rendering engine, so if you can point me to an Safari/Chrome/whatever equivalent to the webbrowser control in .Net then I'll be happy to give it a whirl, however, I suspect that unfortunately I'd have to oblige my customers to install some other software (read 3rd party browser thingy) before my programs would work. By using the webbrowser control I know that it will work straight off.

[miniman]

TeamD said:

The examples here

The thing is, some of us don't just use IE as a browser, we use it as a rendering engine, so if you can point me to an Safari/Chrome/whatever equivalent to the webbrowser control in .Net then I'll be happy to give it a whirl, however, I suspect that unfortunately I'd have to oblige my customers to install some other software (read 3rd party browser thingy) before my programs would work. By using the webbrowser control I know that it will work straight off.

Oh you mean a few freebies I knocked together for people? Well they were pretty happy with them for zero cost but I would agree they are hardly the pinnacle of web design.

Using the browser as a rendering engine within a wider .net application is somewhat different though, isn't it?

[miniman]

cazzer said:

Tell that to the people that made the half a dozen radios I have with different connectors on the back

Which is **precisely** what Microsoft have done, isn't it?! Take a perfectly good standard, and fk around with it so that everyone's life is harder (except TeamDs).

[cazzer]

miniman said:

cazzer said:

Tell that to the people that made the half a dozen radios I have with different connectors on the back

Which is **precisely** what Microsoft have done, isn't it?! Take a perfectly good standard, and fk around with it so that everyone's life is harder (except TeamDs).

Maybe, but the EU isn't bhing any anyone else with their proprietry standard.

[gamefreaks]

cazzer said:

miniman said:

cazzer said:

Tell that to the people that made the half a dozen radios I have with different connectors on the back

Which is **precisely** what Microsoft have done, isn't it?! Take a perfectly good standard, and fk around with it so that everyone's life is harder (except TeamDs).

Maybe, but the EU isn't bhing any anyone else with their proprietry standard.

[RANT]

Microsoft have done this again and again and again. They do it to everything they touch.

Java -> J++.
C++ -> Littered with 'Microsoft Specific' stuff. Try using templates in VC6. (Has got better recently though)
Email -> Defaults to Outlook-specific TNEF format.
HTML -> Already covered.

[cazzer]

gamefreaks said:

cazzer said:

miniman said:

cazzer said:

Tell that to the people that made the half a dozen radios I have with different connectors on the back

Which is **precisely** what Microsoft have done, isn't it?! Take a perfectly good standard, and fk around with it so that everyone's life is harder (except TeamDs).

Maybe, but the EU isn't bhing any anyone else with their proprietry standard.

[RANT]

Microsoft have done this again and again and again. They do it to everything they touch.

Java -> J++.
C++ -> Littered with 'Microsoft Specific' stuff. Try using templates in VC6. (Has got better recently though)
Email -> Defaults to Outlook-specific TNEF format.
HTML -> Already covered.

No one is forced to buy an MS operating system.
So how can it be a monopoly?
There's a couple of dozen Linux, MacOs, probably others I can't be arsed thinking about.
So what if MS make a product with hooks in to keep you using their product....thats good business not a monopoly.
Don't like it? Use a different operating system.

[scorp]

gamefreaks said:

...

C++ -> Littered with 'Microsoft Specific' stuff. Try using templates in VC6. (Has got better recently though)

Meh. Its nearest competitor GCC (GnuC) is loaded with TONS of 'GCC specific' stuff, try compiling linux in VC6

Although i suppose it's trendy when open-source/FSS breaks standards, and evil when Microsoft do it..

Edited by scorp on Thursday 2nd July 02:00

[TeamD]

scorp said:

gamefreaks said:

...

C++ -> Littered with 'Microsoft Specific' stuff. Try using templates in VC6. (Has got better recently though)

Meh. Its nearest competitor GCC (GnuC) is loaded with TONS of 'GCC specific' stuff, try compiling linux in VC6

Although i suppose it's trendy when open-source/FSS breaks standards, and evil when Microsoft do it..

Exactly. "Standards" are the way communists try to ensure that everyone produces the same level of crap. Because, of course, it's fairer that way.

Edited by TeamD on Thursday 2nd July 09:44

[gamefreaks]

TeamD said:

scorp said:

gamefreaks said:

...

C++ -> Littered with 'Microsoft Specific' stuff. Try using templates in VC6. (Has got better recently though)

Meh. Its nearest competitor GCC (GnuC) is loaded with TONS of 'GCC specific' stuff, try compiling linux in VC6

Although i suppose it's trendy when open-source/FSS breaks standards, and evil when Microsoft do it..

Exactly. "Standards" are the way communists try to ensure that everyone produces the same level of crap. Because, of course, it's fairer that way.

Edited by TeamD on Thursday 2nd July 09:44

Ok, maybe C++ wasn't the best example, It didn't exactly get the best start in life!

TeamD said:

Meh. Its nearest competitor GCC (GnuC) is loaded with TONS of 'GCC specific' stuff, try compiling linux in VC6

Touche! I've never tried, but I wouldn't imagine that you would get far trying to compile MFC code under GCC!

[TeamD]

gamefreaks said:

TeamD said:

Meh. Its nearest competitor GCC (GnuC) is loaded with TONS of 'GCC specific' stuff, try compiling linux in VC6

Touche! I've never tried, but I wouldn't imagine that you would get far trying to compile MFC code under GCC!

Erm, I didn't say that bit, but since you mention it...Why bother? If you want to write programs for Linux do it with GCC, if you want to write programs (in C++ that is) for Windows do it with Visual Studio. If all operating systems were the same, the world would be a very tedious place with Beardy Linux sandalistas dictating what we could and couldn't have. No thanks.

[scorp]

TeamD said:

Beardy Linux sandalistas ... No thanks.

[gamefreaks]

TeamD said:

gamefreaks said:

TeamD said:

Meh. Its nearest competitor GCC (GnuC) is loaded with TONS of 'GCC specific' stuff, try compiling linux in VC6

Touche! I've never tried, but I wouldn't imagine that you would get far trying to compile MFC code under GCC!

Erm, I didn't say that bit, but since you mention it...Why bother? If you want to write programs for Linux do it with GCC, if you want to write programs (in C++ that is) for Windows do it with Visual Studio. If all operating systems were the same, the world would be a very tedious place with Beardy Linux sandalistas dictating what we could and couldn't have. No thanks.

Sorry, must have quoted the wrong person.

But to bring this back full circle again, Microsoft have a monopoly because its what all the software runs on. If writing platform agnostic code was easier then there would be more software that runs on multiple OS's. Chicken and egg scenario. No cross-platform software until the OS market is more distributed, and no OS migration until the software is available.

I'm not a 'Beardy Linux sandalista' and I think that people who say "I'll just grep through that document" should be shot at dawn. In their Jesus-boots. Holding a copy of the man pages. Wearing their stupid 'There are 10 types of people...' tee-shirts.

...and breathe.