High-speed rail link - London to Birmingham
Discussion
ninja-lewis said:
rs1952 said:
ninja-lewis said:
rs1952 said:
I had naively thought that the obvious route for much of the line was up the trackbed of the old Great Central railway that was closed in 1966. Marylebone-Amersham-Aylesbury-Brackley-Woodford Halse-Rugby, then dream up a new route to go west to Brum, plus a bit of new line from St Pancras to join up with the GC - perhaps up to Kentish Town, upgrade the North London line towards the west, then pick it up in the Neasden/ Harrow area.
OK, some of the embankments have been removed, and of course there has been some redevelopment over the trackbed over the 44 years since it closed (but its not been there very long so is hardly likely to fall into the category of "destroying our local heritage"), but that line was specifically built with high speed in mind and is straighter than most still-extant routes to the north. I suspect that a good bit of it is still owned by British Rail Residuals into the bargain (they look after all those old bits of infrastructure of closed railways that never got sold off after the lines closed).
The Great Central is being followed, just not as far as Rugby - it ends up west of Brackley where it strikes out for Birmingham. But even the straighter curves of the GCML are still too tight for a HS alignment. If you look at the detailed maps, Quainton for example, the HS2 route eases almost all the GC curves anyway.OK, some of the embankments have been removed, and of course there has been some redevelopment over the trackbed over the 44 years since it closed (but its not been there very long so is hardly likely to fall into the category of "destroying our local heritage"), but that line was specifically built with high speed in mind and is straighter than most still-extant routes to the north. I suspect that a good bit of it is still owned by British Rail Residuals into the bargain (they look after all those old bits of infrastructure of closed railways that never got sold off after the lines closed).
The link you posted shows that HS2 just "touches" Quainton Road. The new line is not following the alignment of the GC at all to the south east of that point.
And as regards curves on the GC being too sharp for modern high-speed running, the Engineering departments of the railway have been dealing with that sort of thing since the 1850s
. If the existing curvature cannot be eased within the existing land ownership boundaries, buy a bit more 
but, even so, the GC alignmnent looks like its only being used between Quainton and south of Brackley. At the south end, there is a completely new line from Quainton to Ruislip where it appears to take the former GW/ GC lines to Old Oak Common then goes into a tunnel to take it to Euston (why not St Pancras I wonder?) with a further link tunnel from Camden to HS1. This would allow trains to run to and from HS1 in the Channel Tunnel direction, but would not give HS2 access to St Pancras.As you say, north of Brackley it is a completely new line.
I still feel that a lot less arguments may have been caused if the alignment of the GC was followed as far as, say, Rugby, and then the new line went west from there.
However, as the consultation period has now closed its a bit late too kick up a fuss about it!
Jobbo said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Currently, yes, but the projections are for greater rail use and I believe they are IMO, like the channel tunnel, high speed rail is an ideal project for government support. Sure they cost big money but so does running a creche for chavs. At least with a capital project you still have the thing afterwards. And as long as you've built something useful it will always give some form of payback in the end, even if the project runs over time and over budget.
...unlike the Millennium Dome fiasco.
Parrot of Doom said:
RobDickinson said:
virgin countryside? realy? in the UK? not a lot of that left is there....
Actually once you're outside London, there's a hell of a lot of countryside in the UK. It's just that most people never bother to go see it.You can try and romanticise it but the modern countryside in the UK is just a giant factory that happens to make food.
This will only help those people wanting to go from Birmingham to London and London to Birmingham, what about the rest of us who want to go to Birmingham but don't start in London ? It's pointless, makes it cheaper, faster and easier to go by car.
This is the problem with rail travel these days, it's only major city to major city - no good for business and too expensive for private use.
This is the problem with rail travel these days, it's only major city to major city - no good for business and too expensive for private use.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I see.For whatever reason, I don't see things like pylons and railway lines as scars on the landscape.
Likewise with motorways.
In fact I think the presence of these essential services can make the scenery more interesting in many ways.
They've always been 'just there' and not bothered me.
Busa_Rush said:
This will only help those people wanting to go from Birmingham to London and London to Birmingham, what about the rest of us who want to go to Birmingham but don't start in London ? It's pointless, makes it cheaper, faster and easier to go by car.
This is the problem with rail travel these days, it's only major city to major city - no good for business and too expensive for private use.
Proper integration with a decent local bus and regional coach network with through ticketing would be the best way of addressing this in my view.This is the problem with rail travel these days, it's only major city to major city - no good for business and too expensive for private use.
This HS2 line goes within 1000 metres of my house, so I have an opinion....
I think the issues here are
£30 billion, that’s a lot of money, can we (and our children) afford it? Keeping the finance in mind, lots of this infrastructure will come from abroad as large chucks of our railway industry has gone now, so that’s a few more quid leaving the country never to return. What’s left of the industry pay so little for their engineering staff – it unlikely to return either, but that’s another story.....
Who is going to use it, rail travel isn’t cheap now, and will it have the kind of premium that the TGV demands? That’s an expensive way of getting about. Therefore, we have everyone paying for a railway line used by the fortunate few... probably just the bankers as passengers using that analogy.
The trains go at 225mph-ish. That’s a lot more noise than 125mph... There is talk of having the cutting 75 metres wide as the air from one train is at risk of blowing the other one over!!! I think this one is a red herring myself. Still – loads of noise. Although the extra noise will help dull the racket from the compressor in my workshop.
I have yet to hear 2 statements that confirm each other on passenger numbers/ number of journeys. As we have seen today, the government are probably going to sell off the HS1 train link, so will HS2 will be sold off? That will do wonders for the ticket prices, and we all know what a fantastic experience train journeys are since privatisation.
If one looks at the total journey time door to door of most intercity (especially Europe) transport, that requires an aircraft, the actual journey time is getting an increasingly small part of the journey. Queuing for 2 hours to get through security is a total pain in the arse. I give it 12 months before someone lets a bomb off/major security alert on this train, and you have your long journey time delays back. ID checks, X-rayed luggage etc...Never mind you now have to look after all those miles of high speed track. A crash at these speeds will be fatalities in the 100’s.
Therefore, there will be people travelling from Aylesbury et al, into London on rickety old Chiltern Railways lines and rolling stocks, and seeing the HS2 whizz past in the other direction. The piece de resistance to this is some of those will be catching the next train, or the next one but tone, to rush into Birmingham at even higher speeds. The lucky souls....
Once this line(s) spreads its tentacles I suspect those on here who accuse some of us of being NIMBY’s will be reviewing their words carefully.
However, I do like the prospect of travelling at 225 mph through the countryside, and it is going to happen ONE DAY... The Maglev out of Shanghai is AWESOME.
I think the issues here are
£30 billion, that’s a lot of money, can we (and our children) afford it? Keeping the finance in mind, lots of this infrastructure will come from abroad as large chucks of our railway industry has gone now, so that’s a few more quid leaving the country never to return. What’s left of the industry pay so little for their engineering staff – it unlikely to return either, but that’s another story.....
Who is going to use it, rail travel isn’t cheap now, and will it have the kind of premium that the TGV demands? That’s an expensive way of getting about. Therefore, we have everyone paying for a railway line used by the fortunate few... probably just the bankers as passengers using that analogy.
The trains go at 225mph-ish. That’s a lot more noise than 125mph... There is talk of having the cutting 75 metres wide as the air from one train is at risk of blowing the other one over!!! I think this one is a red herring myself. Still – loads of noise. Although the extra noise will help dull the racket from the compressor in my workshop.
I have yet to hear 2 statements that confirm each other on passenger numbers/ number of journeys. As we have seen today, the government are probably going to sell off the HS1 train link, so will HS2 will be sold off? That will do wonders for the ticket prices, and we all know what a fantastic experience train journeys are since privatisation.
If one looks at the total journey time door to door of most intercity (especially Europe) transport, that requires an aircraft, the actual journey time is getting an increasingly small part of the journey. Queuing for 2 hours to get through security is a total pain in the arse. I give it 12 months before someone lets a bomb off/major security alert on this train, and you have your long journey time delays back. ID checks, X-rayed luggage etc...Never mind you now have to look after all those miles of high speed track. A crash at these speeds will be fatalities in the 100’s.
Therefore, there will be people travelling from Aylesbury et al, into London on rickety old Chiltern Railways lines and rolling stocks, and seeing the HS2 whizz past in the other direction. The piece de resistance to this is some of those will be catching the next train, or the next one but tone, to rush into Birmingham at even higher speeds. The lucky souls....
Once this line(s) spreads its tentacles I suspect those on here who accuse some of us of being NIMBY’s will be reviewing their words carefully.
However, I do like the prospect of travelling at 225 mph through the countryside, and it is going to happen ONE DAY... The Maglev out of Shanghai is AWESOME.
bucksmanuk said:
This HS2 line goes within 1000 metres of my house, so I have an opinion....
I live about 2 miles (as the crow flies) from a busy airport. Although I hear the jets sometimes, they don't bother me. In fact, the one thing I do find midly annoying are the small single seater aircraft passing overhead at fairly low altitudes, with their very noisy (open??) exhausts.bucksmanuk said:
I think the issues here are
£30 billion, that’s a lot of money, can we (and our children) afford it? Keeping the finance in mind, lots of this infrastructure will come from abroad as large chucks of our railway industry has gone now, so that’s a few more quid leaving the country never to return. What’s left of the industry pay so little for their engineering staff – it unlikely to return either, but that’s another story.....
I sometimes wonder if these figures are real. Will it really cost that much??£30 billion, that’s a lot of money, can we (and our children) afford it? Keeping the finance in mind, lots of this infrastructure will come from abroad as large chucks of our railway industry has gone now, so that’s a few more quid leaving the country never to return. What’s left of the industry pay so little for their engineering staff – it unlikely to return either, but that’s another story.....
bucksmanuk said:
Who is going to use it, rail travel isn’t cheap now, and will it have the kind of premium that the TGV demands? That’s an expensive way of getting about. Therefore, we have everyone paying for a railway line used by the fortunate few... probably just the bankers as passengers using that analogy.
It'll be used by business I'm sure. Just like the current system is.bucksmanuk said:
The trains go at 225mph-ish. That’s a lot more noise than 125mph... There is talk of having the cutting 75 metres wide as the air from one train is at risk of blowing the other one over!!! I think this one is a red herring myself. Still – loads of noise. Although the extra noise will help dull the racket from the compressor in my workshop.
Is there any evidence to support that? They could well be quieter? (what with modern technology and all that)bucksmanuk said:
I have yet to hear 2 statements that confirm each other on passenger numbers/ number of journeys. As we have seen today, the government are probably going to sell off the HS1 train link, so will HS2 will be sold off? That will do wonders for the ticket prices, and we all know what a fantastic experience train journeys are since privatisation.
Privatisation has somehow managed to bugger up many things. Perhaps private enterprise is simply more greedy than the government? (If that's possible!!)bucksmanuk said:
If one looks at the total journey time door to door of most intercity (especially Europe) transport, that requires an aircraft, the actual journey time is getting an increasingly small part of the journey. Queuing for 2 hours to get through security is a total pain in the arse. I give it 12 months before someone lets a bomb off/major security alert on this train, and you have your long journey time delays back. ID checks, X-rayed luggage etc...Never mind you now have to look after all those miles of high speed track. A crash at these speeds will be fatalities in the 100’s.
You make a good point there. But I think any of our current services are even open to this kind of attack. (bearing in mind the London bombings). It may well be that terrorists will target something that'll yield more casualties, possible attempting to trigger any explosions whilst the train is in a busy station for example.bucksmanuk said:
Once this line(s) spreads its tentacles I suspect those on here who accuse some of us of being NIMBY’s will be reviewing their words carefully.
I make no accusations of 'NIMBY' (whatever that means!)bucksmanuk said:
However, I do like the prospect of travelling at 225 mph through the countryside, and it is going to happen ONE DAY... The Maglev out of Shanghai is AWESOME.
Just like the Japanese Bullet train. (not been on it myself, but I hear it's awesome too.)Edited by TonyRPH on Tuesday 21st December 14:02
Magog said:
Busa_Rush said:
This will only help those people wanting to go from Birmingham to London and London to Birmingham, what about the rest of us who want to go to Birmingham but don't start in London ? It's pointless, makes it cheaper, faster and easier to go by car.
This is the problem with rail travel these days, it's only major city to major city - no good for business and too expensive for private use.
Proper integration with a decent local bus and regional coach network with through ticketing would be the best way of addressing this in my view.This is the problem with rail travel these days, it's only major city to major city - no good for business and too expensive for private use.
TonyRPH said:
Just watching BBC news, and some people opposing the plan were interviewed.
One lady in particular, gesturing toward her children said: these are the ones that are going to suffer!
However, my questions are this; just what is going to make the children suffer?
Why are so many people opposed to progress?
Surely we need these transport links - after all new roads appear to be off the agenda in 21st century England, so how else are we supposed to get around?
I am neither for nor against this plan, as I have no idea of any potential negative ramifications.
I'm just trying to understand the arguments being put forth against it.
A big problem with these schemes in the UK is that they don't pay compensation for property they buy or destroy. They offer market value and will even try and beat you down on that with absolutely no relocation costs. I believe in France when the high speed link for the tunnel was being built there was generous packages offered for land and homes, something like market value +30%.One lady in particular, gesturing toward her children said: these are the ones that are going to suffer!
However, my questions are this; just what is going to make the children suffer?
Why are so many people opposed to progress?
Surely we need these transport links - after all new roads appear to be off the agenda in 21st century England, so how else are we supposed to get around?
I am neither for nor against this plan, as I have no idea of any potential negative ramifications.
I'm just trying to understand the arguments being put forth against it.
We've had it where I live on a couple of occasions, once they wanted to take half our garden and have an 8 lane road at the end of it. Another time the chunnel rail link was to go into a tunnel less than 20 metres from our front door, that would be a massive amount of noise as a train enters the tunnel at 150+mph without the noise of the train itself. I'm all for progress but if I wanted to live on a rail track I'd buy a signal box. So by all means build the new communications but give me the opportunity to move away, without adequate compensation I couldn't.
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