UN Workers 'Beheaded' In Afghan Koran Protest

[Muntu]

Pastor Terry Jones actually hits the nail firmly upon the head:

Jones said:

In regard to the riots that have just taken place in Afghanistan at the UN headquarters, the actions of breaking in, setting on fire, and killing of at least 10 individuals so far is highly unacceptable for the government of the United States.

We, at Stand Up America Now, find this a very tragic and criminal action. The United States government and the United Nations itself, must take immediate action. We must hold these countries and people accountable for what they have done as well as for any excuses they may use to promote their terrorist activities. The time has come to hold Islam accountable.

Our United States government and our President must take a close, realistic look at the radical element Islam. Islam is not a religion of peace. It is time that we call these people to accountability. We demand that our United States government stand up and speak out against these acts. These people must be called to justice.

We demand action from the United Nations. Muslim dominated countries can no longer be allowed to spread their hate against Christians and minorities. They must alter the laws that govern their countries to allow for individual freedoms and rights, such as the right to worship, free speech, and to move freely without fear of being attacked or killed.

[Godzuki]

Not too sure what to make of this. Why should religion be protected?

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/608036-islamic-...

[carmonk]

Godzuki said:

Not too sure what to make of this. Why should religion be protected?

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/608036-islamic-...

article said:

Western countries and their Latin American allies, strong opponents of the defamation concept, joined Muslim and African states in backing without vote the new approach that switches focus from protecting beliefs to protecting believers.

Basically it means that a person who lives their life based on a fairy story can expect a greater level of protection in law than a person who does not. Typical discrimination against the non-believers.

[andy_s]

carmonk said:

No offence, but you need to do some research.

I've lived and worked with 'normal, average' muslim arabs for 12 years. I've worked in the security field during that time. I've a degree in Security and Risk Management and am doing a post-grad in Terrorism Studies. I've monitored Islamic terrorism for over a decade as part of my job. I've seen Qaddafi backed rebels in Tchad with my own eyes in the eighties, while everyone elses idea of a terrorist was the IRA.

To paraphrase, I'm all researched out.

(I agree with your above comment though)

[Godzuki]

carmonk said:

Basically it means that a person who lives their life based on a fairy story can expect a greater level of protection in law than a person who does not. Typical discrimination against the non-believers.

Well the reason I don;t know what to make of it, is that the Islamic bloc held back on their blasphemy stuff, and we're maybe going ahead with this 'religious tolerance' thing instead... Exactly what will the difference be? They still don;t explain why religion is subject to higher standards that political persuasion, sports preference, etc. It's ridiculous.

[andy_s]

Godzuki said:

I don't think it is generalising, and I don;t think anyone is saying that all Muslims are like this. However, when you hear on the TV that a suicide bomb has gone off, or a bus has been blown up, or that a IED has gone off, or anything like that, you can, on the whole, tell what religion is is going to be. During the cartoon crisis, if it was a Christian cartoon, do you think there would have been deaths? Do you think embassies would have been burned to the ground? Do you think high ranking Church leaders would have happily issued death threats?

No, I understand the point, but I can assure you that most are normal people, albeit with a different culture, like you and I.

Their problem, if I can generalise(!), is that it is so much a part of their life that they listen to what the 'preacher' tells them and accept it on blind faith, so they are vulnerable to incitement, unsophisticated in their outlook, largely ignorant of our point of view and have a different set of values.
Ironically, that seems to be the general view they have of us...

I do see why people feel this way about Islam and the arabs in general, but I think you can also see that the people that commit these acts are radical groups, thugs, criminals and killers with no regard to human life who either genuinely believe what they are told or cynically use the flag as cover. I just don't see it as simply being because Islam is bad.

It can be crude, and it can be wielded by groups and governments alike with little respect from our point of view, but that's perhaps because it hasn't evolved into near extinction like Christianity yet, and it's a long way from doing so unfortunately, because, to be honest, the world would be a better place without either.

But these are my points of view, I'm not trying to convince or persuade or excuse, but just to open things up from the simplistic view that Islam, per se, is the problem.

Shalom

[NoNeed]

Anybody that thinks there would be no wars or violence without religion is quite frankly, fking stupid.

[Godzuki]

andy_s said:

No, I understand the point, but I can assure you that most are normal people, albeit with a different culture, like you and I.

Yup, and I have said so elsewhere. Agree entirely.

andy_s said:

Their problem, if I can generalise(!), is that it is so much a part of their life that they listen to what the 'preacher' tells them and accept it on blind faith, so they are vulnerable to incitement, unsophisticated in their outlook, largely ignorant of our point of view and have a different set of values.
Ironically, that seems to be the general view they have of us...

So ignorance is an excuse?

andy_s said:

I do see why people feel this way about Islam and the arabs in general, but I think you can also see that the people that commit these acts are radical groups, thugs, criminals and killers with no regard to human life who either genuinely believe what they are told or cynically use the flag as cover. I just don't see it as simply being because Islam is bad.

Yup, and it is these thugs that are so predictable. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be an overly small minority, does it?

andy_s said:

It can be crude, and it can be wielded by groups and governments alike with little respect from our point of view, but that's perhaps because it hasn't evolved into near extinction like Christianity yet, and it's a long way from doing so unfortunately, because, to be honest, the world would be a better place without either.

Agree entirely, but again, ignorance is not an excuse for being a theological murderer.

andy_s said:

But these are my points of view, I'm not trying to convince or persuade or excuse, but just to open things up from the simplistic view that Islam, per se, is the problem.

Shalom

That's fine. Just to show I don;t think it;s all, http://web.mac.com/blue_meanie1976/atheism/Welcome...

I DO think that it is high time that these extremist fktards need to be ran out of town. They are not simply placard wavers, or people who argue a lot, they are killing people, and when your fringe guys get like that, it IS an issue. A huge one.

[carmonk]

andy_s said:

carmonk said:

No offence, but you need to do some research.

I've lived and worked with 'normal, average' muslim arabs for 12 years. I've worked in the security field during that time. I've a degree in Security and Risk Management and am doing a post-grad in Terrorism Studies. I've monitored Islamic terrorism for over a decade as part of my job. I've seen Qaddafi backed rebels in Tchad with my own eyes in the eighties, while everyone elses idea of a terrorist was the IRA.

To paraphrase, I'm all researched out.

(I agree with your above comment though)

I'm talking about researching what the Koran teaches, and what Islam promotes in its followers. Still, being that you've many years experience living amongst Muslims, can explain why you believe the Koran promotes peace and has been somehow corrupted by a minority? If you want I'll relist some of the intolerant calls to arms and murder in the Koran as a starting point, and that's not even touching on hadith and the related Chinese whispers.

[Godzuki]

NoNeed said:

Anybody that thinks there would be no wars or violence without religion is quite frankly, fking stupid.

Who said that?

[DJC]

Godzuki said:

I don't think anyone is ignorant os Christian history, however we are talking about the here and now,. and these fktards whose religion isn't even strong enough to take either criticism, etc, without killing people. It's fking pathetic, quite frankly. Killing people because some paper was burnt. It is this very predictable launching into action that puts the 'Religion of Peace' into the pigeonhole of 'aholes', nothing more.

Go and burn a Bible, and frankly no-one would bat a eyelid. At the most you'd get some unhappy god-botherer with a placard, and that would be it.

The religion IS strong enough, that was my point. Islam has always been a tolerant and accepting religion. It didnt need to "evolve" it was relatively fine as it was, the trouble is that the aspect of it that has evolved is the radical element. The majoity of Muslims still practice something equivalent to the religion of 500 yrs ago and they rock on just fine. The nutters though are unfortunately driving the agenda and they can because the secular side of many Islamic societies is currently very weak. When the secular is weak, the religious will flourish because there isnt an opposing force against them.

[carmonk]

DJC said:

Godzuki said:

I don't think anyone is ignorant os Christian history, however we are talking about the here and now,. and these fktards whose religion isn't even strong enough to take either criticism, etc, without killing people. It's fking pathetic, quite frankly. Killing people because some paper was burnt. It is this very predictable launching into action that puts the 'Religion of Peace' into the pigeonhole of 'aholes', nothing more.

Go and burn a Bible, and frankly no-one would bat a eyelid. At the most you'd get some unhappy god-botherer with a placard, and that would be it.

The religion IS strong enough, that was my point. Islam has always been a tolerant and accepting religion.

You missed the smiley, or your evidence. One or the other.

[NoNeed]

Godzuki said:

NoNeed said:

Anybody that thinks there would be no wars or violence without religion is quite frankly, fking stupid.

Who said that?

Me ya daft git

[Godzuki]

DJC said:

The religion IS strong enough, that was my point. Islam has always been a tolerant and accepting religion. It didnt need to "evolve" it was relatively fine as it was, the trouble is that the aspect of it that has evolved is the radical element. The majoity of Muslims still practice something equivalent to the religion of 500 yrs ago and they rock on just fine. The nutters though are unfortunately driving the agenda and they can because the secular side of many Islamic societies is currently very weak. When the secular is weak, the religious will flourish because there isnt an opposing force against them.

Strong enough? Are you sure? The radical fringe may be the ones responsible, but have you seen what happens when something criticizes their religion? Is strength how well they react to that criticism, or is it how much destruction they can do in the name of it?

[DJC]

carmonk said:

You missed the smiley, or your evidence. One or the other.

Sorry my evidence is back in my degree and the University of Wales library. Ill happily leave the internet arguing to you and the poppy thread. You are of course right and I am wrong. Have a nice day.

[Godzuki]

NoNeed said:

Me ya daft git

[carmonk]

DJC said:

carmonk said:

You missed the smiley, or your evidence. One or the other.

Sorry my evidence is back in my degree and the University of Wales library. Ill happily leave the internet arguing to you and the poppy thread. You are of course right and I am wrong. Have a nice day.

'University of Wales' degree, eh? In that case, please forgive me for my hubris in daring to challenge any of your statements, I have really learned my lesson now.

[Godzuki]

DJC said:

Sorry my evidence is back in my degree and the University of Wales library. Ill happily leave the internet arguing to you and the poppy thread. You are of course right and I am wrong. Have a nice day.

Sorry, DJC, but saying 'but it is peaceful' means nothing. It clearly isn't. Maybe the majority of its followers are not violent, but is there any other religion that has so much blood on its hands in recent times, or so brutal? Hell, even in Islamic states like Pakistan, and Saudi, it is most brutal. Just so you know, I've worked in Saudi. I've seen how absurd it is.

[andy_s]

carmonk said:

andy_s said:

carmonk said:

No offence, but you need to do some research.

I've lived and worked with 'normal, average' muslim arabs for 12 years. I've worked in the security field during that time. I've a degree in Security and Risk Management and am doing a post-grad in Terrorism Studies. I've monitored Islamic terrorism for over a decade as part of my job. I've seen Qaddafi backed rebels in Tchad with my own eyes in the eighties, while everyone elses idea of a terrorist was the IRA.

To paraphrase, I'm all researched out.

(I agree with your above comment though)

I'm talking about researching what the Koran teaches, and what Islam promotes in its followers. Still, being that you've many years experience living amongst Muslims, can explain why you believe the Koran promotes peace and has been somehow corrupted by a minority? If you want I'll relist some of the intolerant calls to arms and murder in the Koran as a starting point, and that's not even touching on hadith and the related Chinese whispers.

Like the Old Testament, it's all down to how it's sold, how it's interpreted and how people then manipulate it to their own ends. As an example, there's no mention of women having to wear a burkha in the Koran for example, in fact it is men that should use a hijab, but where the Koran says that men and women should dress modestly, this has been interpreted in some states as a head to toe covering while in others it's a headscarf and others make no prescription. I realise you probably know this, but it serves as a good example.

It's more vulnerable to abuse because religion plays such a bigger part of their lives than ours. They pray 5 times a day, fast for a month once a year, take pride in a bruised forehead - we're lucky if we get married in church nowadays. If we all were fervent believers and went to church every Sunday and said grace before we ate and didn't work on a Sunday and believed in god as our lives were pretty crap without it (3-500 years ago this was perhaps the case) and were taught the teachings in the Old Testament were literal by our spiritual guide and everyone around us accepted and believed that too, then we too would be stoning adulteresses to death and cutting off the hands of thieves.

Although there are some differences, the Koran is pretty much the same book as the Old Testament, there are calls to arms if taken literally, in both works, but again, there is the usual stuff about loving thy neighbour...

I'm not a scholar in either, but I do see how both have been manipulated over the centuries on both sides to achieve quite different goals than those set out originally.

[andy_s]

Godzuki said:

I DO think that it is high time that these extremist fktards need to be ran out of town. They are not simply placard wavers, or people who argue a lot, they are killing people, and when your fringe guys get like that, it IS an issue. A huge one.

Ha - I've got to skip the multi-quote mania man, it's too late in the night, , I think we agree more than not to be honest, and I don't use ignorance on their part to excuse - I just say that's how it is. We were all ignorant at some stage, this is theirs (if your atheistically minded).

I agree that the Islamic centre needs to get a grip of the less secular, I agree that it is the fktards that need to be run out of town, they are simple criminals and murders, (but perhaps the western world has done little to help the cause - that's a road I'm sure we're all familiar with!) but there you go - the situation is what it is - the people that use the religion to promote violence amongst the ignorant are, ipso facto, the dominant force in these groups.