What's Italian for 'kipper? Anti-migrant stunt goes awry.
Discussion
Longer answer to Zod's question: UKIP will object to whatever they think that a poorly informed public will be worried about. The identity of the boogeyman used to be a scary person from Pakistan who wants to make us all eat at Allan's Snackbar; but now it's a scary person from Poland who wants your job.
Guam, even allowing for the dreadful performance of the main parties, can you really think that such a dreadfully transparent faker as Farage and his gang of opportunists and haters can offer any sort of viable alternative? Why not become active within the mainstream party that is closest to your overall world view and agitate for it to be better and for politics to be better?
We forget that there are still some honourable, able, and public spirited people on back and maybe even front benches in the main parties, because we are rightly furious at the dreadful behaviour of many of the MPs and Ministers and Shadow Ministers and the crappy policies adopted by all recent Governments. Their failure does not make Farage the answer.
Guam, even allowing for the dreadful performance of the main parties, can you really think that such a dreadfully transparent faker as Farage and his gang of opportunists and haters can offer any sort of viable alternative? Why not become active within the mainstream party that is closest to your overall world view and agitate for it to be better and for politics to be better?
We forget that there are still some honourable, able, and public spirited people on back and maybe even front benches in the main parties, because we are rightly furious at the dreadful behaviour of many of the MPs and Ministers and Shadow Ministers and the crappy policies adopted by all recent Governments. Their failure does not make Farage the answer.
Zod, the stout English patriots seem a bit nervous discussing why they are bothered by cultural differences and lack of linguistic, ahem, purity. Of course we need a lingua franca that we use in business, government, and daily life, and that happens to be English, and of course children growing up here should be able to use English, and adults who live here ought to make an effort and learn English too. Most Europeans that you bump into in daily street life do, some older Asians do not; but middle aged and elderly Asian women not speaking English is hardly a huge societal problem (even though we probably all agree that a culture that keeps them veiled and ignorant is a bad culture, to be combatted though education). Who cares what language people speak at home or when hanging out with each other in a cafe? Parts of London are very Francophone these days. Who cares?
Good luck with that, Zod, but I wouldn't wait up.
Only Guam has responded to my invitation to talk about those posters. UKIP: ducking the awkward questions since (whenever it was).
Do you share my amusement at the notion that the position of a chatter thread in a sub-forum of a car website is somehow meaningful to national politics?
Only Guam has responded to my invitation to talk about those posters. UKIP: ducking the awkward questions since (whenever it was).
Do you share my amusement at the notion that the position of a chatter thread in a sub-forum of a car website is somehow meaningful to national politics?
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 23 April 16:34
Zod, the sad thing for them is that they appear to think that, because the peculiar demographic of PH and/or NPE makes them a local majority, this translates to the real world, in which UKIP remains a fringe party. UKIP will do very well on protest votes in the Euro elections, and will be a distant fourth in the General Election, winning, most likely, no seats at all. I have offered to lay money on that but had no takers, as far as I know. (WW said there might be one but I am not sure who.)
Guam said:
Actually taking you at your word, have you asked UKIP any of these questions?
Given that (with one or two exceptions) most posters on these threads aren't members of UKIP?
Would your time not be better spent going to the source of what irks you?
You mistakenly assume that UKIP irks me. It doesn't irk me in the slightest. It provides lots of unintended humour for those of us who do not live in a fantasy world. On a more serious note, its rise sadly confirms the gullibility of part of the public, the success of cynical demagogues who come from a mould first made twenty five centuries ago in Greece, and the persistence in the human mind and spirit of the most base thoughts and feelings. I think that UKIP is a transient, opportunist, and (in the person of its leader at least) deeply insincere organisation. It deliberately exploits and disseminates ignorance and fear. Its leadership consists of people who are either contemptible charlatans or contemptible bigots, or both. Not all who follow its false flag are bigots, but sadly quite a few are. All who follow it are sadly deluded. I'm sorry for you, Guam.Given that (with one or two exceptions) most posters on these threads aren't members of UKIP?
Would your time not be better spent going to the source of what irks you?
You may be right about the EU, Blib. It may be broken beyond repair, even though the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.
Having said that, if you want to get out, the only chance of that happening is, I hate to say it, a Tory win next year. I have said before and say again that much as I am troubled by the bad features of the EU, I am not troubled enough by them to want the Tories back in, so I would forgo the chance of a referendum, given the choice. If a referendum comes, I will vote on the arguments at the time, and could vote either way.
Having said that, if you want to get out, the only chance of that happening is, I hate to say it, a Tory win next year. I have said before and say again that much as I am troubled by the bad features of the EU, I am not troubled enough by them to want the Tories back in, so I would forgo the chance of a referendum, given the choice. If a referendum comes, I will vote on the arguments at the time, and could vote either way.
otolith said:
Breadvan72 said:
the idea of a Federal Europe seems to me a very good one.
Why?Guam, I am not irritated by people not responding to debating challenges posed by those of us who doubt the Gospel according to Nige. I am suggesting that a reasonable inference may be drawn from failure to respond. As for the kitchen feeling a bit warm, although you - almost alone among the pro UKIP group - make some attempt to engage in reasoned argument, you cannot hope altogether to escape ridicule if you support a political party that is ridiculous (to give it one of the kinder epithets that it warrants). If you want to bathe in the glow of Leader Love and worship at the shrine of Saint Nigel, it's not hard to find one or several "Hey, aren't UKIP just the BEST, eh?" threads that you can luxuriate in. If you come here, you may find your views challenged. That's how it works.
Hey, what we need is (democratic) World Government, but we are way off getting that. Take things step by step. One possibility is go back to City States, and at that population size (city plus hinterland) there could be some punchy democracy, but that model too has its difficulties. I would vote for a Federal Europe, but not unless it is one with an effective representative (ie Edmund Burke stylee) democracy built into it.
Guam said:
Hang on though enlargement by forcing disparate cultures together has worked really well in the past......oh wait it hasn't, as others have raised history on here, perhaps they should go read some, all you do is create a pressure cooker of varying expectations and cultural mores, that ultimately implodes, people have to be willing to go down that route, otherwise the very thing they claim to want to avoid will come to pass.
Oddly we are seeing drives towards fragmentation rather than coalescence across Europe, even here in our very Islands. How will a federal EU change the fundamentals of human nature?
That is a counsel of despair and can easily lead to the xenophobes (not you) claiming legitimacy for their arguments of hate. Difference and conflict are not innate human qualities, they are learned behaviours. No child is born disliking the people in the next valley. Look at the history of some (not all) European and non European States and Empires - often spanning large areas and including several different linguistic and cultural groups, but being successful for often quite extended periods. Oddly we are seeing drives towards fragmentation rather than coalescence across Europe, even here in our very Islands. How will a federal EU change the fundamentals of human nature?
I doubt that a democratic World Government will ever happen, or that it will happen for some centuries yet to come, but I can't see why it is not something to aspire to. We might be able to leap forward and exploit the wealth of the Solar System, and live without poverty or conflict if we could unite, but we probably won't. Science fiction, yes, and likely to remain so,
If Global Scandinavia meant no warfare and no poverty, and peace and freedom for all on the planet, would that not be a price worth paying for giving up the noble spectacle of PM's Question Time?
None of this will happen, but there is no harm in thinking about where you might want to get to, even if only on a regional or continental scale.
None of this will happen, but there is no harm in thinking about where you might want to get to, even if only on a regional or continental scale.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 23 April 18:12
Guam said:
Breadvan72 said:
That is a counsel of despair and can easily lead to the xenophobes (not you) claiming legitimacy for their arguments of hate. Difference and conflict are not innate human qualities, they are learned behaviours. No child is born disliking the people in the next valley. Look at the history of some (not all) European and non European States and Empires - often spanning large areas and including several different linguistic and cultural groups, but being successful for often quite extended periods.
Sorry one word responseDARWIN!
Go read him!
Off to pub. See yers tomorrer if I CBA.
Otolith, Special Circumstances would be the perfect gig, as that way you get to hang out at the dangerous margins and mix it up with the other Involveds and their client civs. Just remember to make regular backups of your mind state and don't leave the Orbital or the GCU without that signet ring/knife missile that the SC Training Drone gave you.
Otolith, Special Circumstances would be the perfect gig, as that way you get to hang out at the dangerous margins and mix it up with the other Involveds and their client civs. Just remember to make regular backups of your mind state and don't leave the Orbital or the GCU without that signet ring/knife missile that the SC Training Drone gave you.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 23 April 18:26
This is a handy site for checking the status of EU myths such as "banning our numberplates eeeeeeek!"
http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/blog/index_en.ht...
http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/blog/index_en.ht...
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff