Anjem Choudary

[FredClogs]

Register1 said:

Perhaps he might not leave prison alive, then what would every one worry about?

Unfortunately I suspect he might be more popular in prison than you'd expect, he certainly appears to have the psychological tools to groom the sort of people who end up in prison and he certainly knows how to gain the system and play the law. The worst case scenario here is that he becomes a martyr to some on the outside and a leader, role model and evangelist to those on the inside.

[Likes Fast Cars]

FredClogs said:

....Calling for a Caliphate in the UK is an entirely unreasonable objective (although I don't see why it should be illegal) but calling for the creation of one in other parts of the world is perfectly predictable even if not to your or my taste and ideals.

Do you actually understand what a Caliphate is? It is not restricted to nay one geography, it is THE caliphate for the Islamic religion, based on Sharia Law and.the on the basis that no government having legitimacy or recognition.

[stitched]

FredClogs said:

The Ottoman Empire was officially a Caliphate and that lasted 400 years until 1924. Previous to that the Abbasid Caliphate lasted over 750 years in the area that is now Baghdad, so the idea is not a new one and has deep historic and cultural importance to the religion and the people who follow it, all branches. Modern day Iran and Saudi are Caliphates really. Calling for a Caliphate in the UK is an entirely unreasonable objective (although I don't see why it should be illegal) but calling for the creation of one in other parts of the world is perfectly predictable even if not to your or my taste and ideals.

It is, and should be, illegal as by it's very nature it invokes treason.
If a majority of the people in a democratic country like ours were to somehow VOTE for a medieval system such as espoused then I suppose I'd have to lump it or leave. But to call for an Islamic caliphate without the agreement of the populace, that is treasonous.

[Digga]

stitched said:

It is, and should be, illegal as by it's very nature it invokes treason.
If a majority of the people in a democratic country like ours were to somehow VOTE for a medieval system such as espoused then I suppose I'd have to lump it or leave. But to call for an Islamic caliphate without the agreement of the populace, that is treasonous.

Agreed. The rather stupid and exasperating point is that the whole thing is so futile; there is no way the will of the majority of those in the UK would ever be subjugated so. Ever.

I might as well start a terror campaign until my demands for free whiskey fountains at every street corner were met.

[FredClogs]

Likes Fast Cars said:

FredClogs said:

....Calling for a Caliphate in the UK is an entirely unreasonable objective (although I don't see why it should be illegal) but calling for the creation of one in other parts of the world is perfectly predictable even if not to your or my taste and ideals.

Do you actually understand what a Caliphate is? It is not restricted to nay one geography, it is THE caliphate for the Islamic religion, based on Sharia Law and.the on the basis that no government having legitimacy or recognition.

Modern Iran is a Caliphate in reality so is Saudi, The Ottoman empire was also one, all forms of government ours has willingly and peacefully cooperated with over the centuries. Sunni and Shia Islam have big disagreements on what a Caliphate is and how it should be run so their will never be a single Caliphate under a single branch of Islam, but as a general principle it's no more ridiculous, evil or scary than a continent divided up into hegemonic nations states by familiar monarchs based on little more than their ability to murder more people than their cousins and uncles largely in the belief that God was on their side or "One Nation Under God" which defines the modern US.

That's not to say I think it's a good idea or support any of it, it's ridiculous and risible, in fact hilarious for the likes of Choudary to call for Buckingham Palace to be turned into a super mosque and you'll have to look under a few stones and into dark places to find anyone who would agree with Choudary but once we start making silly ideas illegal we're on a slippery slope. Which Choudary knows and why the legal system has had a hard time and hours and hours of argument in court to convict him.

[Countdown]

Likes Fast Cars said:

Do you actually understand what a Caliphate is? It is not restricted to nay one geography, it is THE caliphate for the Islamic religion, based on Sharia Law and.the on the basis that no government having legitimacy or recognition.

No it isn't.

A caliphate is an area ruled by a Caliph, as King is to Kingdom and Emperor is to Empire,

[BlackLabel]

Part of me always thought that Choudhary being free to spout his nonsense served a purpose for the police and spooks - it meant that he was the focal point for lots of British jihadis and it was therefore easier to keep an eye on them all.

The question is did he really radicalise all these people or was it a case of like minded people coming together?

[irocfan]

PositronicRay said:

Considerably less than 10yrs I'd of thought, that's the maximum term for the offence, sentencing to take place on 6th September.

So maybe 5-6yrs, backdated because of the time he's already served awaiting trial. Out in 3-4yrs.

I hope I'm wrong though.

well there is a 'get out' here, surely if here's 'still a danger to the public' he can be kept under lock and key. The only way to release him should be if he denounces IS?

[Stickyfinger]

irocfan said:

PositronicRay said:

Considerably less than 10yrs I'd of thought, that's the maximum term for the offence, sentencing to take place on 6th September.

So maybe 5-6yrs, backdated because of the time he's already served awaiting trial. Out in 3-4yrs.

I hope I'm wrong though.

well there is a 'get out' here, surely if here's 'still a danger to the public' he can be kept under lock and key. The only way to release him should be if he denounces IS?

and......enter left............ the EU Human Rights law

[Rovinghawk]

Digga said:

my demands for free whiskey fountains at every street corner

Infidel! The fountains should be gin fizz!

You should be burnt at the stake for such heresy!

[Rovinghawk]

Countdown said:

A caliphate is an area ruled by a Caliph, as King is to Kingdom and Emperor is to Empire,

Based on that, should Choudary be ruling a country?

[AJS-]

A caliphate is not simply an Islamic government. The idea of a caliphate is that it claims the allegiance of Muslims worldwide and that the caliph isthe successor to Mohammed. A caliphate is historically an imperial endeavour looking to expand it's territory and hence the rule of Islamic law.

Saudi and Iran wouldn't claim to be caliphates.

The Muslim Brotherhood was established in Egypt after the fall of the Ottoman Empire with the aim of reestablishing a caliphate, but has never claimed to be a caliphate even when they were briefly the government of Egypt.

[williamp]

Stickyfinger said:

irocfan said:

PositronicRay said:

Considerably less than 10yrs I'd of thought, that's the maximum term for the offence, sentencing to take place on 6th September.

So maybe 5-6yrs, backdated because of the time he's already served awaiting trial. Out in 3-4yrs.

I hope I'm wrong though.

well there is a 'get out' here, surely if here's 'still a danger to the public' he can be kept under lock and key. The only way to release him should be if he denounces IS?

and......enter left............ the EU Human Rights law

...closely followed by our favourite human rights money grabber lawyer..

[Digga]

Rovinghawk said:

Digga said:

my demands for free whiskey fountains at every street corner

Infidel! The fountains should be gin fizz!

You should be burnt at the stake for such heresy!

I'd rather be stoned to death at one of my (compulsory in every major town) legalised hash bars.

[Digga]

williamp said:

...closely followed by our favourite human rights money grabber lawyer..

Well, the shysters are being reigned in: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37084030

[FredClogs]

AJS- said:

A caliphate is not simply an Islamic government. The idea of a caliphate is that it claims the allegiance of Muslims worldwide and that the caliph isthe successor to Mohammed. A caliphate is historically an imperial endeavour looking to expand it's territory and hence the rule of Islamic law.

Saudi and Iran wouldn't claim to be caliphates.

The Muslim Brotherhood was established in Egypt after the fall of the Ottoman Empire with the aim of reestablishing a caliphate, but has never claimed to be a caliphate even when they were briefly the government of Egypt.

Following the 1979 Grand Mosque seige the ruling dynasty in Saudi essentially capitulated to Salifist extremists, so whilst the current Saudi Regime may not consider themselves caliph or the country a caliphate they do indeed serve as a proxy for the worst kind of Islamic caliphate and Salafist ideals who do indeed use money and power to spread their ideal across the globe through mosques and islamic schools using money derived directly from the Saudi state system, which the state is complicit in.

Iran is slightly different, Shia Islam have a different idea of what a Caliphate is anyway but it's certainly a state run by religious law and it seeks influence over neighbouring states to spread the influence of it's own ideals.

[AJS-]

Agree about Saudi. The main element missing from the Saudi regime is that they don't claim the allegiance of Muslims worldwide.

My understanding of the Sunni/Shia split is that it's mostly about succession rather than fundamental differences about theology or Islamic law.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Countdown said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

Do you actually understand what a Caliphate is? It is not restricted to nay one geography, it is THE caliphate for the Islamic religion, based on Sharia Law and.the on the basis that no government having legitimacy or recognition.

No it isn't.

A caliphate is an area ruled by a Caliph, as King is to Kingdom and Emperor is to Empire,

It's actually more than that.

Your analogy is correct to a point, the fact is there is one caliph, not many, the Caliphate rules all Islam - all Islamic subjects are under the caliph's rule.

Read up on what ISIS and their terrorist murder cults want.
Also read up on the Ottoman Empire (which included the Caliphate), and the more recent attempts by Reg Erdogan to reinstate the Caliphate (based in a neo-Ottoman "Turkish Empire").

[Likes Fast Cars]

AJS- said:

A caliphate is not simply an Islamic government. The idea of a caliphate is that it claims the allegiance of Muslims worldwide and that the caliph isthe successor to Mohammed. A caliphate is historically an imperial endeavour looking to expand it's territory and hence the rule of Islamic law.

Saudi and Iran wouldn't claim to be caliphates.

The Muslim Brotherhood was established in Egypt after the fall of the Ottoman Empire with the aim of reestablishing a caliphate, but has never claimed to be a caliphate even when they were briefly the government of Egypt.

You put it much better than I did.

[audidoody]

Digga said:

stitched said:

It is, and should be, illegal as by it's very nature it invokes treason.
If a majority of the people in a democratic country like ours were to somehow VOTE for a medieval system such as espoused then I suppose I'd have to lump it or leave. But to call for an Islamic caliphate without the agreement of the populace, that is treasonous.

Agreed. The rather stupid and exasperating point is that the whole thing is so futile; there is no way the will of the majority of those in the UK would ever be subjugated so. Ever.

I might as well start a terror campaign until my demands for free whiskey fountains at every street corner were met.

Well, if you had the BBC and The Guardian giving you limitless exposure on how you were justified in demanding the free whiskey fountains because of what wicked white Western people had done to you - who knows?