No More Coal !

[ATG]

pgh said:

ATG said:

For old properties that can't be well-insulated, burn oil, gas, seasoned wood or smokeless fuel. What's the problem?

No problem at all from my perspective.

Other posters above are claiming that there's never a need to burn wood though. I'd rather see wood responsibly burnt than fossil fuels.

ATG said:

There is nothing wrong with putting more demand on the national grid. It's by far the most sensible way of getting energy to the home. Centralised generation of green electricity is a no-brainer. It may take a while to reduce electricity generation's emissions, but the end state is so much simpler and convenient for the consumer that given the choice, you'd never pick anything else.

The transition period may be a bit rough, but in a few decades we ought to be able to have a plentiful supply of cheap, low emission electricity. What's not to like?

Fully agree, which is why we pay a little more for a renewable electricity tariff.

Here's tonight's responsible combustion shortly after ignition and while still coming up to temperature. In true bumpkin style, you'll see I'm drying what's left of one of the neighbours next to the fire.

[CrutyRammers]

borcy said:

Indeed, I'd quite like to use leaded petrol but alas the communists banned them, I think it was them anyway.

There's no discernible difference between leaded and unleaded until you strip an engine down after 10s of thousands of miles. Nobody cared if their petrol had lead in per se, and natural replacement dealt with the changeover. Not the same at all.
Do you have another, or would you like to address the point?

[irc]

Agammemnon said:

What do they cost?

My fireplace came with the house, as did the trees. I presume your system will not be free?

Precisely. Air source heat pumps circa £7500.

Total costs for a zero carbon UK approx £82'000 per household. Welcome to widespread fuel poverty.

https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2020/02/Th...

[irc]

As for more demand on the National Grid? Current winter heat demand from gas expressed as GW is about 3 times current electricity capacity.

https://gridwatch.co.uk/gas

The politicians who have been brainwashed by eco-loons into planning to electrify the domestic heating systems will ruin us.

[Earthdweller]

irc said:

Agammemnon said:

What do they cost?

My fireplace came with the house, as did the trees. I presume your system will not be free?

Precisely. Air source heat pumps circa £7500.

Total costs for a zero carbon UK approx £82'000 per household. Welcome to widespread fuel poverty.

https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2020/02/Th...

That’s more than many houses are worth where I’m from

[Mort7]

ATG said:

Here's tonight's responsible combustion shortly after ignition and while still coming up to temperature. In true bumpkin style, you'll see I'm drying what's left of one of the neighbours next to the fire.

Brilliant!

Edit: One from me. 450F - but at least mine is fitted with a cat!

Edit #2: Photo removed. Cat claimed right to be forgotten under GDPR.

Edited by Mort7 on Wednesday 4th March 12:11

[dvs_dave]

Agammemnon said:

dvs_dave said:

They’re very few downsides compared to the traditional options once you understand their capabilities.

What do they cost?

My fireplace came with the house, as did the trees. I presume your system will not be free?

Depends on the size of the system, but of course it’s not free. However they’re very often subsidised. Install costs would be similar to installing a conventional gas/oil central heating system though, certainly once you factor in the cost of gas/oil tanks if not on the grid. And then the ongoing cost to run them is a fraction of an off grid oil/gas system.

But if as a flat Earther you’d prefer to spend a significant amount of time (and expense) toiling away with the upkeep and preparation of your own sustainable fuel source year in year out to be afford the luxury of huddling around whichever fire you decide to light, because it’s “free”, then good for you. No amount of persuasion will work.

I’ll give you a knock when the apocalypse comes as I’ll be cold.

[borcy]

CrutyRammers said:

borcy said:

Indeed, I'd quite like to use leaded petrol but alas the communists banned them, I think it was them anyway.

There's no discernible difference between leaded and unleaded until you strip an engine down after 10s of thousands of miles. Nobody cared if their petrol had lead in per se, and natural replacement dealt with the changeover. Not the same at all.
Do you have another, or would you like to address the point?

I thought it obviously, but that'll teach me. People can't do as they please, that various governments have removed many choices from people is nothing new and nothing to do with communists.
Clear enough?

[borcy]

dvs_dave said:

Depends on the size of the system, but of course it’s not free. However they’re very often subsidised. Install costs would be similar to installing a conventional gas/oil central heating system though, certainly once you factor in the cost of gas/oil tanks if not on the grid. And then the ongoing cost to run them is a fraction of an off grid oil/gas system.

But if as a flat Earther you’d prefer to spend a significant amount of time (and expense) toiling away with the upkeep and preparation of your own sustainable fuel source year in year out to be afford the luxury of huddling around whichever fire you decide to light, because it’s “free”, then good for you. No amount of persuasion will work.

I’ll give you a knock when the apocalypse comes as I’ll be cold.

How much is it for an average 3 bed semi to get converted, all in?

Genuine question, I've not got a clue, 20k?

[Mort7]

Yep, mine's a Clearview. Cracking bit of kit. Limited to an inset, unfortunately, which took the place of the previous house owner's inefficient open fire. Stops draughts down the chimney too.

[dvs_dave]

borcy said:

How much is it for an average 3 bed semi to get converted, all in?

Genuine question, I've not got a clue, 20k?

Lot of variables involved but for the whole house looking at probably £10-£15 a square foot.

[Agammemnon]

Mort7 said:

Yep, mine's a Clearview. Cracking bit of kit. Limited to an inset, unfortunately, which took the place of the previous house owner's inefficient open fire. Stops draughts down the chimney too.

May I ask your installation costs and any work beyond the obvious?

[borcy]

dvs_dave said:

borcy said:

How much is it for an average 3 bed semi to get converted, all in?

Genuine question, I've not got a clue, 20k?

Lot of variables involved but for the whole house looking at probably £10-£15 a square foot.

Thanks, not very popular at the moment though. I don't think I know anyone with that set up. But maybe it'll become more popular in the next 5-10 years.

[Mort7]

Agammemnon said:

Mort7 said:

Yep, mine's a Clearview. Cracking bit of kit. Limited to an inset, unfortunately, which took the place of the previous house owner's inefficient open fire. Stops draughts down the chimney too.

May I ask your installation costs and any work beyond the obvious?

Just had a look. Total price was just under 3 grand, most of which was parts, which included the unit, fitting a liner down the entire length of the chimney, bird cowl etc. Of that the installation costs were around the £550 mark, which included cutting the stone fireplace to accept it.. Certified to HEPTA standards. We consider it a very worthwhile investment.

[Agammemnon]

Mort7 said:

Just had a look. Total price was just under 3 grand, most of which was parts, which included the unit, fitting a liner down the entire length of the chimney, bird cowl etc. Of that the installation costs were around the £550 mark, which included cutting the stone fireplace to accept it.. Certified to HEPTA standards. We consider it a very worthwhile investment.

Thanks.

[dvs_dave]

pgh said:

dvs_dave said:

Lot of variables involved but for the whole house looking at probably £10-£15 a square foot.

Which seems like around 10x the cost of standard gas central heating and radiators. Does that give you hot water also?

What are the projected annual electrical costs?

You’d need to work out the specifics for your case, and if you’re on central gas in a town probably not worth it. But there’s usually hefty subsidies available for the installation of them, and once you factor in the significantly reduced running costs and the payback is certainly favorable. They can do hot water too.

They’re not that popular in the UK domestic market yet as the industry caters for mains gas hot water central heating systems. However in the commercial world they’re extremely commonplace. For more remote domestic locations without grid gas they make a lot of sense once looked at holistically, and they also have the significant bonus of being able to provide air conditioning too.

They are very popular in the USA domestic market.

[wisbech]

Scotty2 said:

Just wait till they add Incense sticks and Yankee candles to the forbidden pleasures list!

This could be viewed at phasing out by 2050 or so but next year? That's our coalman and employees out of a job. In the great scheme of things it is just too much nanny state interference.

Why, doesn’t he offer & sell smokeless fuel?

[Pothole]

Earthdweller said:

pgh said:

dvs_dave said:

Wood/coal burners are the scourge of modern urban environments as they’re completely unnecessary, very polluting, and somehow have been latched onto by the virtue signaling green brigade. They’re a disaster and should be restricted one way or another.

What do you suggest instead?

I think he’s going to arrange for every remote rural property to have mains gas pipes laid, that and an eco energy source for each house

As it is the turf we burn is cut from the land we own, dried and slow burned in the way it had been for hundreds of years

Likewise the timber comes from trees felled by the winter or managed

Really?

[ATG]

pgh said:

Is that a Clearview? I don't recognise the primary control, Mort7 too - clearly a British success story

It is indeed. Good bit of kit.

[Agammemnon]

dvs_dave said:

Depends on the size of the system, but of course it’s not free. However they’re very often subsidised. Install costs would be similar to installing a conventional gas/oil central heating system though, certainly once you factor in the cost of gas/oil tanks if not on the grid. And then the ongoing cost to run them is a fraction of an off grid oil/gas system.

But if as a flat Earther you’d prefer to spend a significant amount of time (and expense) toiling away with the upkeep and preparation of your own sustainable fuel source year in year out to be afford the luxury of huddling around whichever fire you decide to light, because it’s “free”, then good for you. No amount of persuasion will work.

I’ll give you a knock when the apocalypse comes as I’ll be cold.

I doubt it's free regardless of the size of the system.

I've done the sums & installing this would be considereably more expensive than occasionally buying a new saw , especially as I would then have to pay for disposal of my excess timber. Also the fire makes a pleasant supplement to my solar powered heating system. Please note I'm fully aware that the earth isn't flat but I appreciate the condescension (that means talking down to people).

Thank you for your concern & I hope the apocalypse treats you gently.