Met police institutionally racist, misogynistic, homophobic

[XCP]

The chair is 'legally trained'. The panel also consists of a 'trained' independent member of the public, and a senior police officer. How they reach their decisions, I have no idea.

[Earthdweller]

Interesting ( scary ) figures buried in the report

26% of Constables in the Met have less than 2 years service

45% of Detectives have less than two years service

The Gov in its infinite wisdom felt that it was appropriate to recruit graduates with no experience direct into roles where it would require significant legal knowledge on both the law and powers and procedures and involves investigation of the most serious and complex of crimes through to presentation of the case at Crown Court

The above tells you just how broken it is

[XCP]

How on earth can anyone with less than 2 years service be a detective?

[irc]

XCP said:

How on earth can anyone with less than 2 years service be a detective?

A trainee. Direct entry? Or do they mean less than 2 years in the CID.

https://www.met.police.uk/car/careers/met/police-o...


Seems madness to me. I would think that many of the skills would be learned dealing with suspects and prisoners for less serious crimes as a uniform cop before any move into CID. Apart from anything else you would by that stage have a better idea whether you were suited to CID work rather than going all in and finding it wasn't for you..

[Ian Geary]

More evidence of the police being racist

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/26/ra...

Figures are derived from England and Wales, though the article flip flops to talking about all police, and then the met, in order to paint a picture of wider failings I think.

The key stat is that 38% of kids strip searched are black, but only 3.8% of the population [of England and Wales?] are black, making it 6 times more likely for black kids, aka baked in racism.

Yet I wonder: if talking about the met: what proportion of kids are black? I think more than 3.8% and I'd reckon more than 38% even...


It does turn out the police are failing to follow quite basic rules in over half the strip searches, which is simply inexcusable.

I'd call that baked in "don't give a toss" about rules, (when applied to themselves of course)

[smn159]

Ian Geary said:

It does turn out the police are failing to follow quite basic rules in over half the strip searches, which is simply inexcusable.

Indeed. Points to a culture of 'rules don't apply to us' and a failure of leadership, given the apparent lack of consequences

[Biggy Stardust]

smn159 said:

Indeed. Points to a culture of 'rules don't apply to us' and a failure of leadership, given the apparent lack of consequences

I've personally had "why the fk should I? I'm police!" on more than one occasion.

[Earthdweller]

Ian Geary said:

More evidence of the police being racist

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/26/ra...

Figures are derived from England and Wales, though the article flip flops to talking about all police, and then the met, in order to paint a picture of wider failings I think.

The key stat is that 38% of kids strip searched are black, but only 3.8% of the population [of England and Wales?] are black, making it 6 times more likely for black kids, aka baked in racism.

Yet I wonder: if talking about the met: what proportion of kids are black? I think more than 3.8% and I'd reckon more than 38% even...


It does turn out the police are failing to follow quite basic rules in over half the strip searches, which is simply inexcusable.

I'd call that baked in "don't give a toss" about rules, (when applied to themselves of course)

nationally( E&W) including all races it works out at just over one child a day being strip searched. There are over 8 million children

That 500 out of 8 million kids each year ( and I’d wager some were searched multiple times )

49.3% of black people, 29.4% of people with mixed ethnicity, and 44.3% of people from the ‘other’ ethnic group lived in London

The Black population of London is about 23% across all age groups, then mixed race about 17% and it will be higher the younger you go do to higher reproduction and a population that has only been in significant numbers for a few decades .. hence much lower numbers % wise of black pensioners

In some areas black/mixed race people make up over 50% of the population. Parts of west London it’s approaching 60%


The white British population is generally much older and therefore the comparisons between settled populations and available population becomes far more complex in relation to policing and crime

Young black males make up by far the highest number of victims of violent crime, including murder. Unsurprisingly they also make up the largest proportion of offenders, and the victims of black crime are almost universally other black males

Again, it’s complex because of lifestyles, from
Broken homes, absent fathers, low incomes, gang cultures etc

The Police deal with crime and criminals, it’s not unexpected nor unreasonable that the proportion of kids from poorer areas ( and minorities which is where many live ) make up a higher number % wise of police/youth interactions

It’s a societal issue, not a specific policing issue

[bmwmike]

Ian Geary said:

More evidence of the police being racist

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/26/ra...

Figures are derived from England and Wales, though the article flip flops to talking about all police, and then the met, in order to paint a picture of wider failings I think.

The key stat is that 38% of kids strip searched are black, but only 3.8% of the population [of England and Wales?] are black, making it 6 times more likely for black kids, aka baked in racism.

Yet I wonder: if talking about the met: what proportion of kids are black? I think more than 3.8% and I'd reckon more than 38% even...


It does turn out the police are failing to follow quite basic rules in over half the strip searches, which is simply inexcusable.

I'd call that baked in "don't give a toss" about rules, (when applied to themselves of course)

Not just racist. Strip searches as young as 8 without an appropriate adult present. Appalling.

[Derek Smith]

Ian Geary said:

More evidence of the police being racist

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/26/ra...

Figures are derived from England and Wales, though the article flip flops to talking about all police, and then the met, in order to paint a picture of wider failings I think.

The key stat is that 38% of kids strip searched are black, but only 3.8% of the population [of England and Wales?] are black, making it 6 times more likely for black kids, aka baked in racism.

Yet I wonder: if talking about the met: what proportion of kids are black? I think more than 3.8% and I'd reckon more than 38% even...


It does turn out the police are failing to follow quite basic rules in over half the strip searches, which is simply inexcusable.

I'd call that baked in "don't give a toss" about rules, (when applied to themselves of course)

It's simplistic to suggest such figures show the police officers as racist. It's much more involved than that.

Instutionalised racism means, amongst other things, that it is not necessarily individuals who cause the anomalies, but systems. The tyranny of stats is another good name for it.

Numbers feed on themselves. (This is a simplistic explanation.)

If you start policing stats, as forces are obliged to do, you go to areas where there are a number of crimes above the norm. It might not be a great difference, but something one can point to on a graph. The obvious answer is to ensure a higher number of police officers patrol the area. What happens? It's likely that these police officers arrest offenders. But if these offences had taken place in an area where there were fewer crimes, they would probably not result in arrests - not so many police around. Next month we discover that crime has actually increased in the original area, so more police are made available.

There's no particular resentment against those in that particular area, but it needs lots of officers. I mean, the stats show that. If the area had a large ethnic minority living there, the stats would also show that the police are obviously biased by picking on that group.

My force had a big drugs problem. They said. The drugs squad, already full of very active officers, was increased in size, and were sent to specific hotspots. At the next HMI inspection, my force was criticised for its high level of drugs abuse. You can, of course, guess the rest. One of the hotspots was at the end of a direct rail link to London. A considerable number of those coming down to deal in drugs were black. In other areas, there were few. Despite having a low proportion of residents outside the Caucasian/ European classification, our arrest rate for ethnic minorities was high. Does that mean blacks commit more offences that other racial groups? Or that the police were racist? Or that an unknown racial bias was built in to the policing methods? Institutionalised racism, without anyone having racist intent or actions.

Do you use a Alexa type of device? You know, one with a subservient female voice jumping at your every whim? You sexist.

There is a device, placed on the finger, which gives details of oxygen % and pulse rate; used extensively on premature children or those with problems with their lungs. It works well on Caucasians. Other races, not so much. Does that make those who sell such devices racist? 'Cause someone must be, surely.

I've recently read Weapons of Maths Destruction, by O'Neil. It goes into such things in greater detail. The style's a bit laboured, but it's a good read. It's a bit depressing as what do we use if we can't use stats?

The treatment of the kids is another matter. I find some of the instances difficult to believe. I want to do more reading.

[JagLover]

Ian Geary said:

More evidence of the police being racist

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/26/ra...

Figures are derived from England and Wales, though the article flip flops to talking about all police, and then the met, in order to paint a picture of wider failings I think.

The key stat is that 38% of kids strip searched are black, but only 3.8% of the population [of England and Wales?] are black, making it 6 times more likely for black kids, aka baked in racism.

Yet I wonder: if talking about the met: what proportion of kids are black? I think more than 3.8% and I'd reckon more than 38% even...


It does turn out the police are failing to follow quite basic rules in over half the strip searches, which is simply inexcusable.

I'd call that baked in "don't give a toss" about rules, (when applied to themselves of course)

You seem to have cited the key stat incorrectly as even the article says that it is 5.9%(this is correct in isolation as far as I can see but excludes mixed race children another 2.5%) of the relevant age group not 3.8% , which highlights really that what we may have is an "institutional misuse of statistics".

On average the police will be stopping and searching young males in high crime areas and in many areas of London that will be over half BAME not 3.8%.

Given the constant news stories we hear of teenage males being stabbed to death perhaps they should be doing more stopping and searching until there is less knife crime?. That would perhaps however require more sophisticated statistical analysis than seen thus far.

Edited by JagLover on Monday 27th March 06:26

[Frik]

Only if stopping and searching has more than a negligible effect on reducing knife crime. Given the lack of patrols highlighted, the chances of stop and search having anything more than a negligible effect on knife crime sounds naive. Add in the double whammy that it's more than likely to be the only interaction many people have with the police and all you do is increase mistrust in certain communities.

[Earthdweller]

This is worth a read

https://rorygeo.substack.com/p/the-inconvenient-tr...

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Frik said:

Only if stopping and searching has more than a negligible effect on reducing knife crime. Given the lack of patrols highlighted, the chances of stop and search having anything more than a negligible effect on knife crime sounds naive. Add in the double whammy that it's more than likely to be the only interaction many people have with the police and all you do is increase mistrust in certain communities.

Do you have experience in this area?

[mat205125]

Derek Smith said:

Ian Geary said:

More evidence of the police being racist

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/26/ra...

Figures are derived from England and Wales, though the article flip flops to talking about all police, and then the met, in order to paint a picture of wider failings I think.

The key stat is that 38% of kids strip searched are black, but only 3.8% of the population [of England and Wales?] are black, making it 6 times more likely for black kids, aka baked in racism.

Yet I wonder: if talking about the met: what proportion of kids are black? I think more than 3.8% and I'd reckon more than 38% even...


It does turn out the police are failing to follow quite basic rules in over half the strip searches, which is simply inexcusable.

I'd call that baked in "don't give a toss" about rules, (when applied to themselves of course)

It's simplistic to suggest such figures show the police officers as racist. It's much more involved than that.

Instutionalised racism means, amongst other things, that it is not necessarily individuals who cause the anomalies, but systems. The tyranny of stats is another good name for it.

Numbers feed on themselves. (This is a simplistic explanation.)

If you start policing stats, as forces are obliged to do, you go to areas where there are a number of crimes above the norm. It might not be a great difference, but something one can point to on a graph. The obvious answer is to ensure a higher number of police officers patrol the area. What happens? It's likely that these police officers arrest offenders. But if these offences had taken place in an area where there were fewer crimes, they would probably not result in arrests - not so many police around. Next month we discover that crime has actually increased in the original area, so more police are made available.

There's no particular resentment against those in that particular area, but it needs lots of officers. I mean, the stats show that. If the area had a large ethnic minority living there, the stats would also show that the police are obviously biased by picking on that group.

My force had a big drugs problem. They said. The drugs squad, already full of very active officers, was increased in size, and were sent to specific hotspots. At the next HMI inspection, my force was criticised for its high level of drugs abuse. You can, of course, guess the rest. One of the hotspots was at the end of a direct rail link to London. A considerable number of those coming down to deal in drugs were black. In other areas, there were few. Despite having a low proportion of residents outside the Caucasian/ European classification, our arrest rate for ethnic minorities was high. Does that mean blacks commit more offences that other racial groups? Or that the police were racist? Or that an unknown racial bias was built in to the policing methods? Institutionalised racism, without anyone having racist intent or actions.

Do you use a Alexa type of device? You know, one with a subservient female voice jumping at your every whim? You sexist.

There is a device, placed on the finger, which gives details of oxygen % and pulse rate; used extensively on premature children or those with problems with their lungs. It works well on Caucasians. Other races, not so much. Does that make those who sell such devices racist? 'Cause someone must be, surely.

I've recently read Weapons of Maths Destruction, by O'Neil. It goes into such things in greater detail. The style's a bit laboured, but it's a good read. It's a bit depressing as what do we use if we can't use stats?

The treatment of the kids is another matter. I find some of the instances difficult to believe. I want to do more reading.

Really well put, and far better than what I was half considering posting to make a similar point.

I'd in no way suggest there there isn't problems of prejudice across policing, however the dangers of drawing binary conclusions based on data is very dangerous indeed ..... This applies to many topics beyond this one.

We're too quick to ignore the root of some the crime problems in society, whether they be economic, education, parenting, lack of a father (or mother) figure in households whilst kids grow up, and point fingers at the Police forces who must work at addressing the side effects of the causes.

[Jonmx]

ZedLeg said:

Earthdweller said:

ZedLeg said:

Walmart doesn’t have a union

Neither do the Police

Huh shows what I know, didn't realise that any sector had a specific ban on unionising. You learn something new every day.

Police Officers are Crown Servants, not employees. This has wide ranging implications regarding Unions, HSE etc. Interestingly, the Equality Act refers to members of an organisation, rather than employees, and thus encompasses uniformed services; something I discovered my Force Legal department were unaware of in certain circumstances.
The Police Federation is the closest thing to a Union, and while it performs a function, it's staff are Police Officers, looking out for Police Officers and I'm not sure this is always a good thing. Those Fed Officers representing officers accused of misconduct will inevitably have mutual contacts, crossover experiences etc. A separate regulatory body that represents officers would be a better bet, but very unlikely to be trusted by officers. Police Officers are naturally very untrusting (In God I trust, everyone else I PNC).

[XCP]

bmwmike said:

Not just racist. Strip searches as young as 8 without an appropriate adult present. Appalling.

24% 10-15
76% 16 and 17.
Where do the 8 year olds fit in?

[Frik]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Do you have experience in this area?

No more than JagLover. Presuming you do, what's your take on it?

[Derek Smith]

mat205125 said:

Really well put, and far better than what I was half considering posting to make a similar point.

I'd in no way suggest there there isn't problems of prejudice across policing, however the dangers of drawing binary conclusions based on data is very dangerous indeed ..... This applies to many topics beyond this one.

We're too quick to ignore the root of some the crime problems in society, whether they be economic, education, parenting, lack of a father (or mother) figure in households whilst kids grow up, and point fingers at the Police forces who must work at addressing the side effects of the causes.

Thanks for that.

It's invidious. The data shows what the data shows and it is considered pristine; immaculate as it's sciency. Yet, of course, it's all programmed by people who might not think their conduct is racist/sexist/etc, but, of course, we are all biased.

I spoke with a depressed detective who was working on a big fraud, and I mean big, that was pulled because it was costing too much. The reason was disputed, but the justification was that no loser really cared. A few £million here and there was nothing. I once nicked a shoplifter for a £4.49 hat. My stat would be put into the system nowadays to show how there was a high rate of criminality in that row of shops. The stats didn't show location of frauds, despite it being less than a mile along the road.

My youngest worked for a charity, no state aid other than tax relief, that deflected children seen as in danger of becoming career criminals. He said one of the biggest flags was being excluded from schools. One kid was a little slow and was excluded from his school just before his exams because they didn't want their averages reduced. My lad liked him. A keen rugby player, if a little over-enthusiastic on field. He was, my lad said, making real progress right up until he was stabbed and killed while running an errand for his brother.

He's now a stat showing that deflection doesn't work, rather than evidence that intervention can turn these lads arounds, and that it might be worth investing a bit more.

[otolith]

Is exclusion cause or correlation, though? Often they are excluded because they are making everyone else's lives a misery.