Theresa May

[crankedup]

andymadmak said:

Eddie Strohacker said:

Moreover, it's conflating separate issues in a stunning demonstration of the Dunning-Kreuger effect. .

No it isn't.

wiki said:

in the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias, wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority when they mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. The cognitive bias of illusory superiority derives from the metacognitive inability of low-ability persons to recognize their own ineptitude. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, low-ability people cannot objectively evaluate their actual competence or incompetence.

Cranky just disagrees with you and has some life experience to back up his assertions. You might think citing Dunning-Kruger makes you look clever. I think it's marvellously ironic!

I was going to look it up, need not worry now, thanks. A remainer demonstrating a self appointed superior intelligence. Dunning - Kruger indeed, wonderful irony. These threads are merely an exchange of people's POV and disagreements will always be part of it, and longmay it continue imo.

[jjlynn27]

crankedup said:

Immigration was uncontrolled, you may not like it but it is a fact. The floodgates were flung open and our friends from Eastern Europe have been welcomed in. I don't care about who has or has not maintain control. Immigration has been seen by Government and business to be a panacea of a cheap labour pool that would bolster output at low wage rates.
You say to me 'stop bandying about falsity' it's not false it is the way I judge and consider, that is what I express. You use data and graphs that suit your agenda, mostly ignoring the real
effect upon the majority of the voting population 52%?
I don't want a protectionist work environment but what I do want is work environment that offers everbody a fair chance on an equal flay level playing field. This concept has been completely undermined thanks to the cheap labour from abroad. This cheap labour has been exploited by businesses t a cost of our indigenous workers having to take on work at paltry pay rates. I thought exploitation was dead and buried years back, I was wrong.
Finally, you continue to suggest it's all our fault, it's not, we did not vote to become a member of the EU and never have we done so.

I certainly agree that minimum wage is far to low against the background of the UK cost of living.
I also agree that labour protection has been desolved to levels which I see as unacceptable.
Must say again the situation has been due to a labour market prepared to accept such conditions that an indigenous worker may not accept.

You do. You want to be protected from laws of supply and demand.

You are saying you want level playing field, without realising that playing field is heavily skewed in your favour. You speak the language natively. You know how the whole system works. You have built in social support network.

You just don't want to work for the same money that they do.
You are complaining about working conditions and minimum wage. Simple answer, better yourself. Do you have an issue with call centre workers being replaced by people in India, South Africa or wherever else?

[Eddie Strohacker]

crankedup said:

I was going to look it up, need not worry now, thanks. A remainer demonstrating a self appointed superior intelligence. Dunning - Kruger indeed, wonderful irony. These threads are merely an exchange of people's POV and disagreements will always be part of it, and longmay it continue imo.

You were shown where your argument was off road & subsequently posted the same opinion again. I don't think there's much more I can say to you, you're not in listening mode, clearly.

[PositronicRay]

jjlynn27 said:

. Do you have an issue with call centre workers being replaced by people in India, South Africa or wherever else?

Yes, I won't use companies that outsource call centres.

[Derek Smith]

Does anyone think that there will be a block on labour coming into this country post brexit?

I'm sure farmers have pointed out that they need thousands come autumn. Then there are nurses and doctors. Then qualified plumbers and electricians. And others. Nothing will change. The perceived need to keep down wages will override any honesty in the stats showing how brexit has meant a cap on immigrants.

[rscott]

crankedup said:

Burning your head in a bucket of sand and pretending it hasn't happened is not the answer. The answer was the leave vote it seems. The EU regulations regarding freedom of movement have been an utter disaster, as has thier shinanagins borders.

Would it not be more accurate to say that the way the UK implemented the EU regulations on freedom of movement was a disaster? We have the right to remove EU citizens who aren't in employment, yet don't use them.

[Eddie Strohacker]

rscott said:

Would it not be more accurate to say that the way the UK implemented the EU regulations on freedom of movement was a disaster? We have the right to remove EU citizens who aren't in employment, yet don't use them.

Good luck, you're the second to point this out today. Much easier to blame the EU though.

[Hayek]

Eddie Strohacker said:

rscott said:

Would it not be more accurate to say that the way the UK implemented the EU regulations on freedom of movement was a disaster? We have the right to remove EU citizens who aren't in employment, yet don't use them.

Good luck, you're the second to point this out today. Much easier to blame the EU though.

I agree significantly with rscott, however the EU is still a problem because you end up in the weeds explaining why something is someone or other's fault. There needs to be a single authority that the (simple) population can direct their frustrations at.

[Puggit]

Derek Smith said:

Does anyone think that there will be a block on labour coming into this country post brexit?

I'm sure farmers have pointed out that they need thousands come autumn. Then there are nurses and doctors. Then qualified plumbers and electricians. And others. Nothing will change. The perceived need to keep down wages will override any honesty in the stats showing how brexit has meant a cap on immigrants.

I see this argument frequently elsewhere. There appears to be some kind of state of mind that says 'doors are closed'. Truth be told, if we are outside of the EU we can control our immigration as we see fit - they do it in ANZ, you know? Need fruit pickers, let's let in 10,000 fruit pickers for 6 months. Need nurses, let's let in 3000 nurses and let them stay.

It's simple common sense.

[JagLover]

Derek Smith said:

Does anyone think that there will be a block on labour coming into this country post brexit?

I'm sure farmers have pointed out that they need thousands come autumn. Then there are nurses and doctors. Then qualified plumbers and electricians. And others. Nothing will change. The perceived need to keep down wages will override any honesty in the stats showing how brexit has meant a cap on immigrants.

Good thing that no one is calling for a block then.

What people want stopped is the unskilled migrants who are a net cost to the taxpayer. I hope that in a few years time if companies want to ensure they have sufficient warehouse staff etc they have to pay a proper wage and offer decent working conditions.

The sky wont fall in and if they companies concerned have to invest in more machinery and training for their staff as a result then so much the better. The economy went down the wrong path in the early 2000s and that is why we are stuck with stagnant productivity and falling real wages for most.

[crankedup]

bad company said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

It's pointless getting into debates over erroneous interpretation of figures with people who have an agenda to support open borders and justify immigration, people can do their own research and make up their own minds.

The other thing which people who like to misrepresent the non-existent positive £ of immigration fail to do is add in all the enormous expenditure which, although it cannot always be apportioned to an individual, is caused by the immigration issue.

But consider one deranged murderer who comes here (there have been hundreds who should have been filtered out with effective controls) - the cost of dealing with a murder/rape is enormous. London jails have a massive immigrant population. Additional policing/justice system/prison/crime costs not included in the equation.

The fact that there are so many Muslims in this country makes it an impossibly expensive/complex job to police/watch for terrorism threats. That cost is massive and exacerbated by immigration. Additional security forces workload and resource demands not included in the equation.

Cost of use of the NHS. Whenever you watch GP/Children's hospital programs they are filled with immigrant patients. In the case of children with extremely complex and expensive issues, often the parents are clearly recent arrivals - they have not contributed a life time of taxes, but get very expensive treatment, in rare cases costing £millions. Cost not in the equation.

Border departments having to employ more people and carry out raids for illegal workers etc. Cost not in the equation.

Nigerian (esp. but by no means exclusively) industrialized benefit fraud and the council resources needed to scratch the surface. Cost not included.

Road congestion costs to economy in London/SE/Major cities and pollution and loss of quality of life. Not costed in the equation.

etc. etc.

All this and more arises because of mass immigration and lax border control.

Not sure where to start as this post is 100% crap.

Let's start by asking how many of the doctors and nurses at the hospitals you refer to at the hospitals are also immigrants and/or Muslims?

There a lot of Muslims so statistically there will be a fair number of nutters in there (like you). Probably about the same percentage as the nutters following any other religion.

We pay for the nurse training and then they pop over the water for higher wages and better conditions of work. Those that remain I expect, but don't know, go work in the private sector. The only people that the NHS can hang onto appear to be immigrants?

[crankedup]

jjlynn27 said:

crankedup said:

Immigration was uncontrolled, you may not like it but it is a fact. The floodgates were flung open and our friends from Eastern Europe have been welcomed in. I don't care about who has or has not maintain control. Immigration has been seen by Government and business to be a panacea of a cheap labour pool that would bolster output at low wage rates.
You say to me 'stop bandying about falsity' it's not false it is the way I judge and consider, that is what I express. You use data and graphs that suit your agenda, mostly ignoring the real
effect upon the majority of the voting population 52%?
I don't want a protectionist work environment but what I do want is work environment that offers everbody a fair chance on an equal flay level playing field. This concept has been completely undermined thanks to the cheap labour from abroad. This cheap labour has been exploited by businesses t a cost of our indigenous workers having to take on work at paltry pay rates. I thought exploitation was dead and buried years back, I was wrong.
Finally, you continue to suggest it's all our fault, it's not, we did not vote to become a member of the EU and never have we done so.

I certainly agree that minimum wage is far to low against the background of the UK cost of living.
I also agree that labour protection has been desolved to levels which I see as unacceptable.
Must say again the situation has been due to a labour market prepared to accept such conditions that an indigenous worker may not accept.

You do. You want to be protected from laws of supply and demand.

You are saying you want level playing field, without realising that playing field is heavily skewed in your favour. You speak the language natively. You know how the whole system works. You have built in social support network.

You just don't want to work for the same money that they do.
You are complaining about working conditions and minimum wage. Simple answer, better yourself. Do you have an issue with call centre workers being replaced by people in India, South Africa or wherever else?

No I do not want a protectionist work environment. no matter that you tell me I do!! Read my post, it explicitly points out that I want a level playing field, very different to protectionist. Explain how you feel that the odds are skewed in my favour. What you do say is nonsense in that it is not addressing my main point, that is an indigenous worker has to support a very high cost of living. The immigrant worker. comes over and is prepared to live a much lower living standard, only because that standard is far higher than his/her native. Country offers.
Would I work for the money on offer to these immigrants, no I used to work for myself
Having run my own successful business and then sold it on to retire I do not need you or anybody else to preach to me about bettering myself You make far too many assumptions.
Do I have issues regarding call centre workers being replaced by Indian or South African workers you ask. Very obviously a loaded question and one to which I choose not to answer. why next thing is you will be shouting out that I am a racist.

[crankedup]

Eddie Strohacker said:

crankedup said:

I was going to look it up, need not worry now, thanks. A remainer demonstrating a self appointed superior intelligence. Dunning - Kruger indeed, wonderful irony. These threads are merely an exchange of people's POV and disagreements will always be part of it, and longmay it continue imo.

You were shown where your argument was off road & subsequently posted the same opinion again. I don't think there's much more I can say to you, you're not in listening mode, clearly.

I don't agree with what I am reading, it's my pov and that's all, try not to be too upset.

[crankedup]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Exactly, I have pointed this out time and again but it falls upon closed minds and ears. It is possible to run a successful business and pay the correct rates of pay, however the greed factor has been very apparent over the past decades.

[jjlynn27]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

We are embarking on this 'oh yea lets trade with the world' exercise, and we'll need to be as competitive as possible.

[crankedup]

rscott said:

crankedup said:

Burning your head in a bucket of sand and pretending it hasn't happened is not the answer. The answer was the leave vote it seems. The EU regulations regarding freedom of movement have been an utter disaster, as has thier shinanagins borders.

Would it not be more accurate to say that the way the UK implemented the EU regulations on freedom of movement was a disaster? We have the right to remove EU citizens who aren't in employment, yet don't use them.

We, as a Nation, have tried to run this Country on. shoestring. As soon as the Public Sector employee is mentioned the hands are thrown up in horror. It's not just the UK that has seen the Eastern European workers increase, Germany, France also owing to the relative wealth of these three Countries why wouldn't relatively poor people want to better themselves. It's at the cost to the indigenous workers that I find objectionable.
I do recall our customs officers carry out high profile raids on some businesses, catering trades mainly, sweeping through the workplace and arresting people who had not registered to be in the Country.
It's very much a case of finding these people and then fighting court cases with all the associated costs prior to expelling back to Country of origin.

[jjlynn27]

crankedup said:

No I do not want a protectionist work environment. no matter that you tell me I do!! Read my post, it explicitly points out that I want a level playing field, very different to protectionist. Explain how you feel that the odds are skewed in my favour. What you do say is nonsense in that it is not addressing my main point, that is an indigenous worker has to support a very high cost of living. The immigrant worker. comes over and is prepared to live a much lower living standard, only because that standard is far higher than his/her native. Country offers.
Would I work for the money on offer to these immigrants, no I used to work for myself
Having run my own successful business and then sold it on to retire I do not need you or anybody else to preach to me about bettering myself You make far too many assumptions.
Do I have issues regarding call centre workers being replaced by Indian or South African workers you ask. Very obviously a loaded question and one to which I choose not to answer. why next thing is you will be shouting out that I am a racist.

Calm down.

I don't think that you are racist at all, you thinking that I'll 'shout' that is another of your baseless prejudices. I do think that you are confused, but no, I don't think that you are racist at all.

I did explain about 'playing field'.

You are accusing me of making assumptions, and yet you are typing how immigrants are prepared to live a much lower living standards. I'm one of those immigrants and that generalisation is as stupid as they come.

We do have a minimum wage, if people don't want to be paid minimum wage, improve yourself (not you personally) and get a better paid job.

Those jobs are going to be replaced by tech so fast anyway, that people will have to either adapt / do something else, or they'll starve.

[crankedup]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Sure we will need to be competitive, that means sharpen your pencils and don't rely upon cheap labour.
I do agree though that some immigrants are entirely successful and have brought prosperity to the Uk, much the same as the indigenous worker. Why wouldn't they want to prosper. You are confusing the issues being discussed.

[Garvin]

On the subject of wage suppression it's not just about immigrants it's also about the self inflicted damage of the wonderful harebrained scheme of tax credits introduced by an erstwhile UK Government for which the Dunning-Kruger effect might be seen as very appropriate.

[anonymous-user]

Eddie Strohacker said:

rscott said:

Would it not be more accurate to say that the way the UK implemented the EU regulations on freedom of movement was a disaster? We have the right to remove EU citizens who aren't in employment, yet don't use them.

Good luck, you're the second to point this out today. Much easier to blame the EU though.

Seems so simple really.