Things are not looking good in Venezuela.
Discussion
NRS said:
Partly, but remember part of the problems in Venezuela are just good old fashioned corruption, so wouldn't matter if it's right wing or left wing who is in charge.
Strange then that it's usually under socialist regimes that the general populous go hungry and the ruling party end up murdering their own people. A tad rarer in non hard left democratic free market regimes...chris watton said:
NRS said:
Partly, but remember part of the problems in Venezuela are just good old fashioned corruption, so wouldn't matter if it's right wing or left wing who is in charge.
Strange then that it's usually under socialist regimes that the general populous go hungry and the ruling party end up murdering their own people. A tad rarer in non hard left democratic free market regimes...For example CDR in Rawandan, or, closer to Venezuela, Pinochet in Chile.
NRS said:
I'd say the important words there are free democratic... Plenty of other countries that are not socialist who have murdered/tortured/caused mass exile of their own people etc.
For example CDR in Rawandan, or, closer to Venezuela, Pinochet in Chile.
So you're argument rests on (relatively) backwards tin-pot countries, then?For example CDR in Rawandan, or, closer to Venezuela, Pinochet in Chile.
chris watton said:
So you're argument rests on (relatively) backwards tin-pot countries, then?
Can you tell me what Venezuela was like before Chavez/Maduro please? How did Chavez get into power?ETA: Yes, hence why I said "free democratic" is the important word, rather than which end of the spectrum it is from. You seem to be arguing any right wing dictatorship is just a tin-pot country, yet socialist countries doing badly is only because they are socialist.
Edited by NRS on Tuesday 29th January 19:13
chris watton said:
So he's ultimately made Venezuela a much better country than before? You going there on your next vacation?
So no answer to any of my points? My original point was part of the reason for the decline is corruption. You are the one saying it is only socialism, and that any right wing dictatorship doesn't count because it's tin-pot country. Ignoring that Venezuela could be called the same thing. If you knew history (which is why I said what happened before Chavez) is the country was doing very badly for decades. In this time the Communist party was excluded from the pact between the major countries too, so you can't blame the commies there. Chavez actually took it massively up in standards for many (helped by high oil prices), before it collapsed again to what we have now. Then it is being said that socialism was the reason for the decline - ignoring that it also helped it do very well. I do think the socialism in place in Venezuela is a lot of the reason behind the current situation. But it's not all of it. And it's stupid to insinuate only right wing dictators don't count in murdering their people as they're just tin-pot countries...
Ironically I'm probably a bit right of centre in my economic views ... However I try and view each situation as it is, not just drop some rubbish about it always being the commies ruining things.
Edited by NRS on Tuesday 29th January 19:31
I emigrated in 2008. I can tell you that since the 80s is when things got worse in Venezuela. Corruption had been part of the system long before though.
The country grew in numbers too fast for the income generated, the governments did not plan for the future at all and never managed to decrease the dependance of oil.
In come the socialists which did help a small number of people often neglected before, these in turn will now depend entirely from the government handouts because they didn't have the means to earn a better living or preferred not to.
The existent middle class was decimated by the socialists, the private enterprise was taken by the military/government, things such as rice, flour, milk were declared of primary necessity and the control had to belong to the state.
The government and a great part of their supporters are the lowest scum on earth.
Killers and corrupts to the bone.
20k people fired in the 2003 strike, maybe deserved but often forgotten is that the private pension of those was stolen by the government. Many close to retirement age.
It is very difficult to hold a conversation with such individuals, because they won't hear/read facts.
It is being two decades now that the hate speech was introduced by the socialists, corruption is systematic.
The two generations that have learn nothing else will have very poor human values, making it difficult for the country to address its core issues, even if the opposition is elected.
No one should forget that Corbyn liked the system, I am not happy with May but there is no way I can ever vote for someone that shared/shares the views of the so called socialists of Venezuela
The country grew in numbers too fast for the income generated, the governments did not plan for the future at all and never managed to decrease the dependance of oil.
In come the socialists which did help a small number of people often neglected before, these in turn will now depend entirely from the government handouts because they didn't have the means to earn a better living or preferred not to.
The existent middle class was decimated by the socialists, the private enterprise was taken by the military/government, things such as rice, flour, milk were declared of primary necessity and the control had to belong to the state.
The government and a great part of their supporters are the lowest scum on earth.
Killers and corrupts to the bone.
20k people fired in the 2003 strike, maybe deserved but often forgotten is that the private pension of those was stolen by the government. Many close to retirement age.
It is very difficult to hold a conversation with such individuals, because they won't hear/read facts.
It is being two decades now that the hate speech was introduced by the socialists, corruption is systematic.
The two generations that have learn nothing else will have very poor human values, making it difficult for the country to address its core issues, even if the opposition is elected.
No one should forget that Corbyn liked the system, I am not happy with May but there is no way I can ever vote for someone that shared/shares the views of the so called socialists of Venezuela
That's a lot of my understanding of it. I think Chavez did help a lot more people out than just a few who had been forgotten (hence him being supported and such a popular figure for so long). However by basically confiscating all the foreign wealth and private investment it meant they got a benefit for a while, and also had the high oil price. Flip side was it stopped investment in the country or people trying to make any sort of private business. End result is what we have now, which might have been able to scrape by, but is made even worse with the growing corruption, and effectively change into a dictatorship.
I have a suspicion Venezuela could be a successful socialist country, but it needed to be balanced more. Look after more people left behind by society (such as those before Chavez got power), but not grabbing all the foreign wealth/ stopping it being worth your own people creating businesses, forcing pay to be equal for skilled workers/non-skilled workers etc. More like Norway - use the oil wealth to look after people, but balance it more with free market etc.
As you said, Corbyn is too socialist for the UK and will likely bankrupt the country if in power long enough.
I have a suspicion Venezuela could be a successful socialist country, but it needed to be balanced more. Look after more people left behind by society (such as those before Chavez got power), but not grabbing all the foreign wealth/ stopping it being worth your own people creating businesses, forcing pay to be equal for skilled workers/non-skilled workers etc. More like Norway - use the oil wealth to look after people, but balance it more with free market etc.
As you said, Corbyn is too socialist for the UK and will likely bankrupt the country if in power long enough.
E24man said:
What Socialism needs in order to succeed is honest Socialists in charge...
Animal Farm is a great read as to why this hasn't happened.
The Khmer Rouge weren't particularly corrupt. Socialism has much bigger problems than corruption. You can only pretend all animals are equal for so long.Animal Farm is a great read as to why this hasn't happened.
John Bolton sure does love a war.
“John Bolton's notes on '5,000 troops to Colombia' spark speculation about military intervention in Venezuela”
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/01/2...
“John Bolton's notes on '5,000 troops to Colombia' spark speculation about military intervention in Venezuela”
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/01/2...
NRS said:
I'd say the important words there are free democratic... Plenty of other countries that are not socialist who have murdered/tortured/caused mass exile of their own people etc.
For example CDR in Rawandan, or, closer to Venezuela, Pinochet in Chile.
There are two controlled experiments, countries split into two with one free market capitalist and one communist. Perhaps we should check how East Germany compared with West or North Korea with South?For example CDR in Rawandan, or, closer to Venezuela, Pinochet in Chile.
Or whether more people flee from Florida to Cuba or vice versa. Or how Hong Kong compared with China.
Dr Jekyll said:
There are two controlled experiments, countries split into two with one free market capitalist and one communist. Perhaps we should check how East Germany compared with West or North Korea with South?
Or whether more people flee from Florida to Cuba or vice versa. Or how Hong Kong compared with China.
Yeah but the healthcare is excellent in Cuba (except it's not)Or whether more people flee from Florida to Cuba or vice versa. Or how Hong Kong compared with China.
Dr Jekyll said:
NRS said:
I'd say the important words there are free democratic... Plenty of other countries that are not socialist who have murdered/tortured/caused mass exile of their own people etc.
For example CDR in Rawandan, or, closer to Venezuela, Pinochet in Chile.
There are two controlled experiments, countries split into two with one free market capitalist and one communist. Perhaps we should check how East Germany compared with West or North Korea with South?For example CDR in Rawandan, or, closer to Venezuela, Pinochet in Chile.
Or whether more people flee from Florida to Cuba or vice versa. Or how Hong Kong compared with China.
Fraud/corruption exist anywhere that humans are involved because there will always be a few that don't work for the common good.
Any country that annoys the US (even if the US is sucking the lifeblood out of those countries) is pretty much guaranteed to be invaded / crushed / regime changed. I'm not entirely surprised that Cuba/Iran/NK and Venezuela have dug in and resisted any changes brought by outside influence because they see enemies everywhere that want to take advantage. If it isn't the US, it's China or the Russian vandals.
The best analogy I can think of is an alternative version of the The Good Life where Margot and Jerry do everything in their power to disrupt and destroy Tom and Barbara's crops and animals and then when it all comes crashing down sit back and tell everyone "See, self sufficiency never works".
sugerbear said:
The best analogy I can think of is an alternative version of the The Good Life where Margot and Jerry do everything in their power to disrupt and destroy Tom and Barbara's crops and animals and then when it all comes crashing down sit back and tell everyone "See, self sufficiency never works".
Go on then, what US measures have caused Venezuelan poverty?sugerbear said:
I dont doubt that some countries are quite nasty to their populations because in which ever country you live there will always be people that crushed by whatever system is in place.
Crushed by an uncaring yet generous benefits system vs being crushed by bodies being thrown on top of you in an open grave. 
So things are ramping up...
The US will no longer pay PDVSA for Venezuelan oil. Maduro's last income stream is about to run dry.
The US National Security Adviser was photographed (deliberately?) with a notepad where he had scribbled '5000 troops to Colombia'.
Trump might be considering something that will improve his image after the fiasco of the shutdown and the wall. Maduro is a definite 'baddie'. On the other hand Venezuela is a big place and its geography does not lend itself to American armoured vehicles. He won't want a jungle war. He won't want to play hardball with Russia and China either. Best bet might be to position troops in Colombia and park a fleet offshore in the hope that Maduro will do the right thing.
The US will no longer pay PDVSA for Venezuelan oil. Maduro's last income stream is about to run dry.
The US National Security Adviser was photographed (deliberately?) with a notepad where he had scribbled '5000 troops to Colombia'.
Trump might be considering something that will improve his image after the fiasco of the shutdown and the wall. Maduro is a definite 'baddie'. On the other hand Venezuela is a big place and its geography does not lend itself to American armoured vehicles. He won't want a jungle war. He won't want to play hardball with Russia and China either. Best bet might be to position troops in Colombia and park a fleet offshore in the hope that Maduro will do the right thing.
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