The Irish border

[Earthdweller]

The Surveyor said:

The control of goods should be the easy bit, especially when one country trades in Euros, and the other in Pounds Sterling.

The sooner everybody accepts that there isn't really an 'Irish Border' question, it's really just another part of the hole 'Leave' process that is being milked for effect by the EU, it's just part of their negotiations.

I agree .. far far too many experts that until a few months ago had never heard of the Irish Border let alone crossed it

[Tuna]

The Surveyor said:

The sooner everybody accepts that there isn't really an 'Irish Border' question, it's really just another part of the hole 'Leave' process that is being milked for effect by the EU, it's just part of their negotiations.

It's hard not to think that they are negotiating in bad faith when their 'backstop agreement' runs absolutely contrary to the stated goals of both NI and the UK. It reads like "If we should happen to not get to an agreement, then we get everything". Where is the incentive for them to come to an agreement if the failure of talks results in the best possible outcome for the EU?

[Mrr T]

The Surveyor said:

Mrr T said:

The potentially required border controls would only apply to goods not people.

The control of goods should be the easy bit, especially when one country trades in Euros, and the other in Pounds Sterling.

The sooner everybody accepts that there isn't really an 'Irish Border' question, it's really just another part of the hole 'Leave' process that is being milked for effect by the EU, it's just part of their negotiations.

I love the idea that because the countries trade in different currencies it negates the requirement for a border. Truly truly an epic fail.

[soupdragon1]

Tuna said:

It's hard not to think that they are negotiating in bad faith when their 'backstop agreement' runs absolutely contrary to the stated goals of both NI and the UK. It reads like "If we should happen to not get to an agreement, then we get everything". Where is the incentive for them to come to an agreement if the failure of talks results in the best possible outcome for the EU?

It reads the same in both directions though. T May wants to Brexit but not have a border in the Irish Sea. Its a square peg round hole situation. Nobody wants a border anywhere, but we can't Brexit properly without one somewhere. Something has to give.

[The Surveyor]

Tuna said:

It's hard not to think that they are negotiating in bad faith when their 'backstop agreement' runs absolutely contrary to the stated goals of both NI and the UK. It reads like "If we should happen to not get to an agreement, then we get everything". Where is the incentive for them to come to an agreement if the failure of talks results in the best possible outcome for the EU?

I'm not sure I understand who's 'backstop agreement' you are refereeing too, what I was saying is that the EU simply has to make the whole Brexit process and difficult and as painful as possible, it has to hurt the UK so badly that no other country wants to follow and leave the EU.

[andymadmak]

soupdragon1 said:

It reads the same in both directions though. T May wants to Brexit but not have a border in the Irish Sea. Its a square peg round hole situation. Nobody wants a border anywhere, but we can't Brexit properly without one somewhere. Something has to give.

Having a situation where a sovereign nation is expected to break up its internal structure just to satisfy what is supposed to be a trading bloc tells you exactly which side should be giving ground. (clue: and it aint the UK)

[slow_poke]

The Surveyor said:

Tuna said:

It's hard not to think that they are negotiating in bad faith when their 'backstop agreement' runs absolutely contrary to the stated goals of both NI and the UK. It reads like "If we should happen to not get to an agreement, then we get everything". Where is the incentive for them to come to an agreement if the failure of talks results in the best possible outcome for the EU?

I'm not sure I understand who's 'backstop agreement' you are refereeing too, what I was saying is that the EU simply has to make the whole Brexit process and difficult and as painful as possible, it has to hurt the UK so badly that no other country wants to follow and leave the EU.

This the backstop that was agreed by the British PM in December, and is agreed between the UK and EU?

[The Surveyor]

soupdragon1 said:

It reads the same in both directions though. T May wants to Brexit but not have a border in the Irish Sea. Its a square peg round hole situation. Nobody wants a border anywhere, but we can't Brexit properly without one somewhere. Something has to give.

We already have a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, it works very well at the moment despite different Governments, Currency, and Laws either side.

Both the North and South want a border, they just don't want it to be a barrier.

[Mrr T]

andymadmak said:

soupdragon1 said:

It reads the same in both directions though. T May wants to Brexit but not have a border in the Irish Sea. Its a square peg round hole situation. Nobody wants a border anywhere, but we can't Brexit properly without one somewhere. Something has to give.

Having a situation where a sovereign nation is expected to break up its internal structure just to satisfy what is supposed to be a trading bloc tells you exactly which side should be giving ground. (clue: and it aint the UK)

So let be clear. The UK is leaving the EU and is also choosing to leave the SM and the CU. This requires a customs border in Ireland. To accommodate that the rEU countries should abandon 20 years of work to create a free trade area across the EU in order to help the UK.

An odd idea but some brexiters seem to have a lot of odd ideas.

[TonyToniTone]

JuniorD said:

They've been counted up and there are 208 border crossings along the 310 mile frontier between NI and ROI.

In comparison, there are apparently only 137 crossings along the entire border between the whole of the EU and all of the countries to the east of the bloc.

No physical border has suited so many so well for so long.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-i...

Does anyone actually believe there would only be 137 crossings if you used the same method to count both the east of EU and Irish crossings?

[Sway]

Mrr T said:

andymadmak said:

soupdragon1 said:

It reads the same in both directions though. T May wants to Brexit but not have a border in the Irish Sea. Its a square peg round hole situation. Nobody wants a border anywhere, but we can't Brexit properly without one somewhere. Something has to give.

Having a situation where a sovereign nation is expected to break up its internal structure just to satisfy what is supposed to be a trading bloc tells you exactly which side should be giving ground. (clue: and it aint the UK)

So let be clear. The UK is leaving the EU and is also choosing to leave the SM and the CU. This requires a customs border in Ireland. To accommodate that the rEU countries should abandon 20 years of work to create a free trade area across the EU in order to help the UK.

An odd idea but some brexiters seem to have a lot of odd ideas.

That's not it at all.

To accommodate a mutual desire to retain the highly integrated economies of Northern and Southern Ireland, the UK Government would like a discussion on how the WTO requirements of a customs border can be achieved as seamlessly and transparently as possible. Such as a technological evolution of the principles and process application afforded to companies with AEO status today.

That is not so difficult if there is the desire, as the requirements of a customs border from a WTO perspective are fairly minimal. The majority of the process today is conducted away from the 'line of entry' into the customs jurisdiction.

[soupdragon1]

The Surveyor said:

We already have a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, it works very well at the moment despite different Governments, Currency, and Laws either side.

Both the North and South want a border, they just don't want it to be a barrier.

A post brexit border is different though, which I'm sure you recognise?

[soupdragon1]

andymadmak said:

Having a situation where a sovereign nation is expected to break up its internal structure just to satisfy what is supposed to be a trading bloc tells you exactly which side should be giving ground. (clue: and it aint the UK)

The residents of said sovereign nation voted to leave, and the consequences aren't as simplistic as first thought. And the EU isn't asking for a a break up of internal structure either, the UK voters have put the government in the position where unless they break it up, they cant give the voters what they wanted. That's not the EU's fault.

[PurpleMoonlight]

soupdragon1 said:

The residents of said sovereign nation voted to leave, and the consequences aren't as simplistic as first thought. And the EU isn't asking for a a break up of internal structure either, the UK voters have put the government in the position where unless they break it up, they cant give the voters what they wanted. That's not the EU's fault.

That's not quite correct.

Delivering the will of the people is easy. It is the political desire to maintain an open border with Ireland that is causing the issue.

I doubt many people voting in Great Britain gave NI any consideration and dont give a stuff about it.

[soupdragon1]

PurpleMoonlight said:

That's not quite correct.

Delivering the will of the people is easy. It is the political desire to maintain an open border with Ireland that is causing the issue.

I doubt many people voting in Great Britain gave NI any consideration and dont give a stuff about it.

But that's not correct either, as the very topic (not breaking up the sovereign status quo) includes NI, whether they like it or not.

[MC Bodge]

PurpleMoonlight said:

I doubt many people voting in Great Britain gave NI any consideration and dont give a stuff about it.

I doubt that many of the people voting to leave the EU gave a stuff about anything substantive.

[anonymous-user]

Jimboka said:

So nothing in place to stop those pesky EU nationals wandering into the UK ? & vice versa?
Doesn’t fit with the ‘take back control’ rhetoric

Bless. The weekly bullst say the same thing topup continues.

[Tuna]

Mrr T said:

So let be clear. The UK is leaving the EU and is also choosing to leave the SM and the CU. This requires a customs border in Ireland.

Yes, of some form or other, though both sides appear to agree that a minimally intrusive border would be, you know, a good idea.

Mrr T said:

To accommodate that the rEU countries should abandon 20 years of work to create a free trade area across the EU in order to help the UK.

And then you go off the deep end. No part of the current arrangements, or backstop agreement requires the EU to 'abandon' their free trade area. This is all about the EU considering the nature of the border, not drowning the first born child of every European citizen.

Yet, the EU backstop agreement requires the relationship between two parts of the UK - a nation over which it should no longer have sovereign control - to be significantly changed. Not only significantly changed, but changed in a way that undermines a very difficult political arrangement.

Pretending that the EU having to accept a novel border arrangement is the same as NI having to change it's trading status with the nation that it belongs to shows remarkable dedication to the EU cause.

Mrr T said:

An odd idea but some brexiters seem to have a lot of odd ideas.

I'll remind you again, I'm not a Brexiter - but I am someone who wants both parties in the negotiations to stop p***ing around and to sort out a trade agreement that allows us to move on. I'm fed up of brinkmanship and claims that "it couldn't possibly happen" when it comes to new arrangements. We trade, and socialise and visit with our neighbours despite government intervention, not because of it. Some of the grand bureaucrats could do well to remember that.

[davepoth]

PurpleMoonlight said:

That's not quite correct.

Delivering the will of the people is easy. It is the political desire to maintain an open border with Ireland that is causing the issue.

I doubt many people voting in Great Britain gave NI any consideration and dont give a stuff about it.

I did, but then I was under the (sadly overly) optimistic assumption that the EU would want to move towards the WCO's (not the WTO) vision for trade facilitation - that the unimpeded flow of goods across the UK-EU border could be the beginning of a step-change in international trade. Unfortunately the EU doesn't want to do that.

http://www.wcoomd.org/en/topics/facilitation/overv...

[B'stard Child]

jsf said:

Jimboka said:

So nothing in place to stop those pesky EU nationals wandering into the UK ? & vice versa?
Doesn’t fit with the ‘take back control’ rhetoric

Bless. The weekly bullst say the same thing topup continues.

Hit and run specialist (with an irish passport already arranged so he's all right Jack)

It's fking wet in Ireland so I hope he likes it