Hillsborough Inquest

[McGee_22]

Phil Dicky said:

Having watched the documentary it's obvious that opening gate C didn't result in the direct deaths of the fans.

That's controversial - one of the thread's most consistent posters is absolutely convinced that the opening of the gates was the 'direct cause' of the deaths...

[Red 4]

McGee_22 said:

Phil Dicky said:

Having watched the documentary it's obvious that opening gate C didn't result in the direct deaths of the fans.

That's controversial - one of the thread's most consistent posters is absolutely convinced that the opening of the gates was the 'direct cause' of the deaths...

Jeez, you have a real boner for me don't you ...
A word of advice though - get your facts right before your try to criticise.
See my post at 10.30 yesterday.
Opening Gate C AND failing to close the tunnel was the direct cause of the crushing.
Try not to spit your dummy again.

[McGee_22]

no need for insults

Edited by McGee_22 on Thursday 5th December 21:40

[Steve Campbell]

There was crushing outside the stadium. The worst crushing I’d ever experienced until then. People were being lifted up from the crowd onto the walls outside. I entered through one of the 7 turnstiles eventually after getting pinned against the wall between the turnstiles and unable to move until eventually someone managed to wedge themselves between me and wall and I “popped” into the gate like a cork out of a bottle. I then waited by the tunnel to see if I could find friends. When I saw Gate C being opened I walked into the tunnel and ended up in Pen 4. In one of the documentaries and Police footage I can be seen walking towards the ground and then can be seen in the crush in Pen 4. Terrible day, not only for me, but for my family who watched and new I was in there somewhere. I eventually managed to call them from a house near where I parked the car around 5.30pm.

Bacon Is Proof said:

Red 4 said:

XCP said:

The elephant in the room is obvious. Liverpool fans crushed other Liverpool fans. The whys and the wherefores have been much debated and discussed. There were failings by police and all the relevant authorities.
But football fans behaved like football fans did and 96 people died. As someone else said, if it had been any other sport, it wouldn't have happened.

See question 7.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/26/14...

There was crushing outside of the stadium.
You can see it on the video.
One of the eye witnesses noted that "it got fairly crushy there, and so they opened up the gates"

"like all of us, I tried to get behind the goal {pens 3+4} and way too many of us tried to get behind the goal"

"we were literally pulling people through the turnstiles to get them out of the crush outside"

and a recollection from the police radio:

"FFS, if we don't open these gates people are going to die"

A horrible situation for all involved with a multitude of factors resulting in tragedy.
Poor policing of a huge crowd into a badly built stadium.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

TTwiggy said:

My view is that the fans were unfairly demonised in the immediate aftermath and have since been unrealistically deified.

Exactly right. They've gone from being 100% responsible (which anyone who knew anything about football in the 70s/80s knew was a load of crap) to being 100% innocent (which anyone who knows anything about football in the 70s/80s knows is load of crap).

[Cantaloupe]

McGee_22 said:

no need for insults

To be fair Red has been under the cosh for a while, I think he can be forgiven for a few well aimed put-downs.

[McGee_22]

Steve Campbell said:

There was crushing outside the stadium. The worst crushing I’d ever experienced until then. People were being lifted up from the crowd onto the walls outside. I entered through one of the 7 turnstiles eventually after getting pinned against the wall between the turnstiles and unable to move until eventually someone managed to wedge themselves between me and wall and I “popped” into the gate like a cork out of a bottle. I then waited by the tunnel to see if I could find friends. When I saw Gate C being opened I walked into the tunnel and ended up in Pen 4. In one of the documentaries and Police footage I can be seen walking towards the ground and then can be seen in the crush in Pen 4. Terrible day, not only for me, but for my family who watched and new I was in there somewhere. I eventually managed to call them from a house near where I parked the car around 5.30pm.

Your words and experience are very humbling for those of us who still struggle to understand some of the circumstances of the tragedy; I sincerely and genuinely hope that at sometime and in some way over the last 30 years you have managed to come to terms with the events of that day and have not had to dwell or recount those memories too often and to any lasting detriment to your own wellbeing.

Thank you for posting.

[Red 4]

McGee_22 said:

Steve Campbell said:

There was crushing outside the stadium. The worst crushing I’d ever experienced until then. People were being lifted up from the crowd onto the walls outside. I entered through one of the 7 turnstiles eventually after getting pinned against the wall between the turnstiles and unable to move until eventually someone managed to wedge themselves between me and wall and I “popped” into the gate like a cork out of a bottle. I then waited by the tunnel to see if I could find friends. When I saw Gate C being opened I walked into the tunnel and ended up in Pen 4. In one of the documentaries and Police footage I can be seen walking towards the ground and then can be seen in the crush in Pen 4. Terrible day, not only for me, but for my family who watched and new I was in there somewhere. I eventually managed to call them from a house near where I parked the car around 5.30pm.

Your words and experience are very humbling for those of us who still struggle to understand some of the circumstances of the tragedy; I sincerely and genuinely hope that at sometime and in some way over the last 30 years you have managed to come to terms with the events of that day and have not had to dwell or recount those memories too often and to any lasting detriment to your own wellbeing.

Thank you for posting.

Well said.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Steve Campbell said:

There was crushing outside the stadium. The worst crushing I’d ever experienced until then. People were being lifted up from the crowd onto the walls outside. I entered through one of the 7 turnstiles eventually after getting pinned against the wall between the turnstiles and unable to move until eventually someone managed to wedge themselves between me and wall and I “popped” into the gate like a cork out of a bottle. I then waited by the tunnel to see if I could find friends. When I saw Gate C being opened I walked into the tunnel and ended up in Pen 4. In one of the documentaries and Police footage I can be seen walking towards the ground and then can be seen in the crush in Pen 4. Terrible day, not only for me, but for my family who watched and new I was in there somewhere. I eventually managed to call them from a house near where I parked the car around 5.30pm.

Sounds dreadful. I've been in many crushes outside grounds waiting to get it, and it's terrifying. My worst experience was leaving The Shed at Stamford Bridge (before the rebuild) after a game, down the steep stairs that led to the Fulham Road (and utter death trap, looking back). We'd lost at home to West Ham so people were keen to get out to confront their celebrating fans! The usual nonsense. There was a surge and I fell over, and about 5 people clambered over me whilst I was on the ground. Thought I was a gonna. Luckily, some huge bloke was about to stand on me but managed to stop and hold the surge behind him back for a few seconds to enable me to get to my feet.

Then there's crushed inside the ground, like the game away at Orient, cup tie in 78. Luckily no fences and the small wall at the front collapsed, allowing us to spill on to the pitch, this averting any tragic outcome.

Post Hillsborough, it stopped overnight. Even before all the stadia were upgraded. Fan behaviour changed forever.

[Ayahuasca]

Given the circumstances on the day - what could have been done to prevent the tragedy?

[ChevyChase77]

Ayahuasca said:

Given the circumstances on the day - what could have been done to prevent the tragedy?

And what differences were there in 1988 when it didn't happen?

[Red 4]

Ayahuasca said:

Given the circumstances on the day - what could have been done to prevent the tragedy?

Lots of things.
The main one being closing the gates on the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 when the pens were full/ prior to opening Exit Gate C.

The gates to the tunnel were closed in previous years.

[JNW1]

Red 4 said:

Ayahuasca said:

Given the circumstances on the day - what could have been done to prevent the tragedy?

Lots of things.
The main one being closing the gates on the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 when the pens were full/ prior to opening Exit Gate C.

The gates to the tunnel were closed in previous years.

Exactly! However, my contention is the closing of those gates to the tunnel should have been a matter of routine process; the stewards inside the ground monitor how full pens 3 and 4 are getting and, when they've reached capacity, the gates are closed. Those pens were full before Gate C was opened so if the proper process had worked the gates to the tunnel to those pens would have been closed before Gate C was opened (and hence the tragedy would have been avoided).

However, what I don't understand is why people think it should have been the responsibility of the police officer in charge of the game to decide when to close the gates to the tunnel; surely others in the ground were better placed to determine when that was appropriate and they should have just told Duckenfield what they'd done rather than await an instruction from him to do it?

[Red 4]

JNW1 said:

Red 4 said:

Ayahuasca said:

Given the circumstances on the day - what could have been done to prevent the tragedy?

Lots of things.
The main one being closing the gates on the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 when the pens were full/ prior to opening Exit Gate C.

The gates to the tunnel were closed in previous years.

Exactly! However, my contention is the closing of those gates to the tunnel should have been a matter of routine process; the stewards inside the ground monitor how full pens 3 and 4 are getting and, when they've reached capacity, the gates are closed. Those pens were full before Gate C was opened so if the proper process had worked the gates to the tunnel to those pens would have been closed before Gate C was opened (and hence the tragedy avoided)..

However, what I don't understand is why people think it should have been the responsibility of the police officer in charge of the game to decide when to close the gates to the tunnel; surely others in the ground were better placed to determine when that was appropriate and they should have just told Duckenfield what they'd done rather than await an instruction from him to do it?

I agree. But it was the decision to open Gate C without ensuring that the tunnel was closed that led to the crushing.
That decision was made by Duckenfield.
"A blunder of the first magnitude" - Lord Justice Taylor.

[Phil Dicky]

Red 4 said:

JNW1 said:

Red 4 said:

Ayahuasca said:

Given the circumstances on the day - what could have been done to prevent the tragedy?

Lots of things.
The main one being closing the gates on the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 when the pens were full/ prior to opening Exit Gate C.

The gates to the tunnel were closed in previous years.

Exactly! However, my contention is the closing of those gates to the tunnel should have been a matter of routine process; the stewards inside the ground monitor how full pens 3 and 4 are getting and, when they've reached capacity, the gates are closed. Those pens were full before Gate C was opened so if the proper process had worked the gates to the tunnel to those pens would have been closed before Gate C was opened (and hence the tragedy avoided)..

However, what I don't understand is why people think it should have been the responsibility of the police officer in charge of the game to decide when to close the gates to the tunnel; surely others in the ground were better placed to determine when that was appropriate and they should have just told Duckenfield what they'd done rather than await an instruction from him to do it?

I agree. But it was the decision to open Gate C without ensuring that the tunnel was closed that led to the crushing.
That decision was made by Duckenfield.
"A blunder of the first magnitude" - Lord Justice Taylor.

Agreed Red..but let's not let SWFC off the hook to easy. They should have been managing the crowd situation just a keenly.

[Ayahuasca]

Red 4 said:

Ayahuasca said:

Given the circumstances on the day - what could have been done to prevent the tragedy?

Lots of things.
The main one being closing the gates on the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 when the pens were full/ prior to opening Exit Gate C.

The gates to the tunnel were closed in previous years.

OK, so it sounds like the tunnel gates should have been closed when pens 3 and 4 were full.

Question - why was this then not standard operating procedure?

[Red 4]

Phil Dicky said:

Agreed Red..but let's not let SWFC off the hook to easy. They should have been managing the crowd situation just a keenly.

Fair point, Phil.
Crowd management, an out of date safety certificate for the ground, signage, etc etc.etc.
They all played a part.
No disputing that.

[Cantaloupe]

Red 4 said:

I agree. But it was the decision to open Gate C without ensuring that the tunnel was closed that led to the crushing. Lord Justice Taylor.

That would apply if sheep or cattle were football fans, one following the other, blind instinct, panic, stampede.

We are talking about humans, even football fans en masse have some semblance of logic and reason, they must have known within minutes that the tunnel pens were full, why keep on pushing ?

[Red 4]

Ayahuasca said:

Red 4 said:

Ayahuasca said:

Given the circumstances on the day - what could have been done to prevent the tragedy?

Lots of things.
The main one being closing the gates on the tunnel leading to pens 3 and 4 when the pens were full/ prior to opening Exit Gate C.

The gates to the tunnel were closed in previous years.

OK, so it sounds like the tunnel gates should have been closed when pens 3 and 4 were full.

Question - why was this then not standard operating procedure?

I don't know is the honest answer.
The gates had been closed on previous years.
The operational order for the game was heavily criticised ( amongst other things).
Lack of police inside and outside the turnstiles and at the entrance to the tunnel/ on the concourse inside the ground.
I have written lots of Operational Orders. There is an expectation to get them right.
Planning is the key. It didn't happen here.

Edited by Red 4 on Friday 6th December 16:47

[McGee_22]

Cantaloupe said:

That would apply if sheep or cattle were football fans, one following the other, blind instinct, panic, stampede.

We are talking about humans, even football fans en masse have some semblance of logic and reason, they must have known within minutes that the tunnel pens were full, why keep on pushing ?

As the eye-witness posted earlier in the thread, there was a crush outside turnstiles caused by fans pushing and pressing to get in, to the point where Police and the eyewitness thought lives were at risk there.

Could it be that before Hillsborough no fans really had a thought that all that continued pushing and pressing forward would actually kill people? As other posters have referenced, there had been crushes with injuries before in UK stadiums but had there been an event with a significant amount of deaths?

The only real recent reference before Hillsborough is Heysel; 39 people died and over 600 injured with a report suggesting that the wall collapsing actually reduced the deaths as it allowed fans to escape, and breath. The 39 who died at Heysel were almost exclusively asphyxiated and the wall collapsing effectively popped the cork and allowed the Juventus fans to eacape from the crush and the advancing Liverpool fans.

Perhaps the lessons of Heysel were lost due to the additional circumstances of the state of the stadium (very poor, able to be torn apart by hand) and the rioting and aggressive nature of the fans; that and the subsequent manslaughter cases against the Liverpool fans who were deemed solely responsible by the UEFA representative who witnessed the whole dreadful thing unfold in front of him.

Despite some protestations to the contrary I think anyone who lived through the 1980's, attended matches or Policed football stadiums of big games through the 1980's knew what a big pushy crowd could be like of any flavour, colours, support or origin could be like - but did the crowds of supporters themselves know how dangerous they were en mass?

As I said, Heysel should have been a lesson but the extra circumstances and, even as Liverpool season ticket holders and supporters were to comment between the two events, there was an unspoken but very distinct unwillingness at Liverpool to want to discuss and fully appreciate the events of Heysel.

Perhaps that was the opportunity missed - a chance to critically understand that a large crush of supporters, whether chased in fear of lives as at Heysel, or just eager to get to the front as at Hillsborough, could result in deaths if there was nowhere for the fans at the front to go.

Did football crowd management suddenly step change immediately after Hillsborough with the immediate reduction of risk down to stewards, Police and infrastructure, or did the individuals in large crowds suddenly realise through cold hard evidence and fact that they could be the very cause of deaths if they were unable or unwilling to think clearly and take personal responsibility for their own movement and inclination?

Now, 30 years after the event, the solemn and heartfelt words of the survivors, like the guy who posted on here, tell you just a small element of the dangerous pushing, pressing and crushing that was going on before the fans had even reached the Police and stewards at the turnstiles.

RIP the 96 unlawfully killed at Hillsnorough, as well as the 39 that were killed by manslaughter at Heysel, but please also let the all the families find some peace and finally move on now the lessons of crowds have been learned and acted upon.